Submitted by Eric Daniel
I was introduced to big bore anti-tank (anti-material) rifles back in the 80′s when I became an ardent follower of the board game Advanced Squad Leader (ASL was originally produced by the Avalon Hill Game Company, which was purchased by Hasbro, who discontinued production of the game. ASL is now published by MLB pitcher Curt Schilling and his Multi-Man Publishing company.) For those of you unfamiliar with the game, ASL was arguably the most accurate and detailed squad level tactical board game ever developed, with counters representing individual squads, leaders, tanks and support weapons.
Anyway, the one support weapon that caught my eye was the L-39 Lahti 20mm AT rifle. In game terms the Lahti was heavy (5 portage points) and it fired off of the AVF kill table under the “20L” column (the only squad portable weapon capable of doing so.) In real life terms the L-39 was heavy, (109 pounds, necessatating its transport by reindeer) and possessed such savage recoil (its cartridge, the 20 mm x 138 mm Solothurn Long, was the largest ever fired by a shoulder fired weapon in the war) that the Finns dubbed it the "Norsupyssy" ("Elephant Gun"), but it was also capable of reaching out 1,000m and penetrating 10mm of armor plate. Rendered obsolete by advanced Soviet tank designs by 1941, the incrediable accuracy of the L-39 enabled it to remain in service as a long range sniper rifle.
Seventy years later, the concept of the long range, big bore, anti-material rifle has come full circle. With .50 caliber (12.7mm) rifles a dime a dozen, my question now is, “who fields the new “Elephant Gun” of the 21st century?”
In terms of penetrating capability, the “Big Stick” designation would seem to go to the Austrian Styer IWS 2000. Firing a propriatary 15.2mm APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) mini tank round, the armor piercing
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Back in the summer of 1990, I got to spend a fair amount of time with a Barrett .50, but more recently I have been rather impressed by a couple of sub .50 cal rounds, the .338 Lapua and the .408 Chey Tac. Scroll down to the bottom of this link to see the .338 and .408 rifles.
http://prometheus.med.utah.edu/~bwjones/C1276349108/E20070320114348/index.html
“… the 33-pound XM-109 is still in a developmental status (currently the felt recoil of the XM-109 is outside minimum Army tolerances.)” — I rather believe that the recoil is outside of the Maximum tolerance; too much kick.
Although the XM-109 won’t be fielded by Big Army, SOF operators may still get to play. It only requires the right USSOCOM signature to waive the safety requirement for special purpose applications. Of course, they will need a mule to haul the case of ammo and traction therapy after firing it. The Barrett .50 is a breeze and a hoot to fire. I just couldn’t afford enough trigger time on it and I have too short a range. The Whisper .510 is another solid shooter. My thousand yard group with the Whisper was just under 10 inches.
But for blinding or killing tanks, I still want a Mk-47 and a fast 4WD truck to haul it. Not shoulder fired, but very effective.
Goto this web site and watch video
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/535412/future_weapons_super_sniper_rifle/
Take at look at this 20mm rifle…
http://www.anzioironworks.com/
I got a chance to fire the L-39 Lahti rifle back in the mid ’60s, you could call it a moving experience. Just don’t put your off hand in front of the trigger guard, it ejects straight down and the brass comes out fast and hard enough to break fingers.
What about the NTW 20 from South African manufacturer Denel?
20 mm Variant
Cartridge: 20×83.5 mm
Operation: manual bolt action
Feed: 3-round box-type, detachable magazine
Weight, empty: 26 kg
Overall length: 1,795 mm
Rifling: 1 full turn in 560 mm
Length of barrel: 1,000 mm
Muzzle velocity: 720 m/s
Muzzle energy: 28,500 J
Effective range: > 1,500 m
I have been preaching the performance of anti armor firearms for years usually falling on deaf ears until a nasty little war comes along.The weapon systems have improved greatly in the last few years but like the 1911 it is hard to replace the performance of cetain tried rounds.If it well truly fielded in Iraq it would be intersting to read troop reports of their performance.
I swear I heard that Barrett was working on a 20mm AM rifle (but may have been confused with the 25mm, of course it could have been a test project prior to the 25)
Defense Review article
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=313
Their new .416 looks to be a pretty need AP rifle
i think its so coal i realy think its mounster when u think what can do this whit peapol
Some additional thoughts….
I wrote this piece more out of curiosity than anything else. It was not my intention to identify the best anti-materiel rifle out there, but really more just take a look at where the big-bore rifle community was going.
As I noted, the absolute biggest caliber weapon out there (that I was able to find, if someone can find something bigger please let me know) that was the 25mm XM-109, while the one with the most penetration capability was the IWS 2000 with its SLAP-like sub-caliber penetrator.
These are not the only big-game guns out there, to be sure. Several of you mentioned the South African NTW-20. The NTW-20 is an interesting platform in that it can be reconfigured by the operator in the field to fire either the German MG151 20 x 82mm cartridge (max. effective range 1,300m) or the Soviet 14.5 x 115mm MG round fired by the KPV heavy machine gun (1,800m MER.) That I did not mention this rifle is not a knock on its capabilities, utility, or effectiveness, but rather, it just wasn’t the biggest hammer in the box (in the 20mm realm, the Croatian rifle takes that prize.)
I owned a Lahti L39 back in the sixtys. I never thought that the recoil was that bad. It had an excellent muzzle brake and two hydraulic shock absorbers. I took a slow motion movie of a friend shooting it and you can see a ripple go all the way to his feet but he didn’t think it was too bad either. It was a tack driver at 800 meters, the longest range I could find. All the ammo I had was AP-T. It was a lot of fun to shoot.
I was a 20mm gunner in the US Navy during WW2 and I think it was a great AA weapon and sometimes shooting and exploding floating mines, But I can’t understand why anyone would want to use one for any other purpose except fighting a war. I did have one to explode with me stapped into the harness although we had been told that it could never happen. One round was jammed in the barrel and not extracted when the next round attempted to go into the barrel and with a detonator in the nose, it made quite an explosion and puntured my right ear drum. The Naval Ordinace in Akron, Ohio said that was the first case on record. I still liked the weapon and was a gunner on 3 different ships with two tours on one of them.
the .461 is in response to california’s (I refuse to capitilize that areas name) attempt to limit rifles over .470 and barret very quickly made the .461. To my knowledge no military has accepted it for service mostly due to yet another round in the supply chain. The fifty seems to provide very valuable service. If you need more than that call for air support. My god-son, currently deployed in Iraq, has access to a barret and they use it regularly at ranges well beyond what the AK based sniper pieces can do.
Hi Eric,
It’s great to hear from another ardent Squad Leader fan! I’ve tried to find strategic computer games that rival the realism, detailed game play and military strategy captured by the old school board game. I am yet to find one that measures up. The only problem I found with the Squad Leader series from Avalon Hill was finding opponents, as learning to play the game required the equivilant dedication of a war school education. Good to run across a fellow Squad Leader veteran. Salute!
The Finnish gun helped the ballbusting Finns to win the Winter War over the Russians. In post war years it helped safe robbers open safes as well until it was taken off the surplus market. Not to be picky but do the writers of these reports not know how to use his spell checker? Jeez Louise! Thanks,
Don Shipman
Germany’s Tankgewehr Mauser M 1918 was the first to equip its soldiers against the then new tank threat.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-214535.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13.2_mm_Rifle_Anti-Tank_(Mauser)
Recoil is a non-starter; except in militaries like our own where everything is dumbed down to the massess. Recoil is managed by weapon design, shooter selection and TRAINING. We must not, and yet do, costantly seek mechanical solutions to training problems. Hence the 9×19, etc.
The German 28/20mm “squeeze bore” AT gun of 1942 had to be the best of them all. A single shot weapon with an artillery like sliding breech block, It fired a dart like projectile of 28mm which was “squeezed” thru the bore down to 20mm @ 4000 + FPS.
Eric,
Thanks for the information regarding ASL. I was wondering if anybody would continue that great line of games. I cut my teeth on “Tactics II”. Haven’t seen a PC driven game yet to rival Avalon Hills board game of ASL, although Microsoft’s Close Combat came “close”. :)
Eric –
Have you taken a look at Combat Mission? That game, like Close Combat, was originally supposed to be the PC version of Squad Leader, but AH fumbled the ball on both.
B.C. Milligan
(former AH employee and Squad Leader playtester, back when your grandmother was a girl)
It is good to hear that there are other Squad Leader fans out there. The is a computer game that does a pretty good job of capturing the essence of Squad Leader and that is Steel Panthers. I think it is now called Steel Panthers World at War. There is also a version which uses Modern Equipment 1950-2020 called Steel Panthers Main Battle Tank. Both games are a lot of fun and very addictive. You can download free versions from a number of places one of them being Matrix Games.
Had some trigger time on both the Lahti and the German counterpart Solothurn due to collector friends. Recoil was “stout” but not unmanageable, hydraulics and muzzle brakes. Excellent accuracy on both, the Solothurn was “sexier” but the Lahti was more robust. Results on abandoned vehicles at 500 – 1000 m or so were spectacular.
TO Posted by: Gordon | September 12, 2007 at 04:25 AM :::
Gordon, another ASL gamer. I refuse to play the video wargames as there is nothing like Squad Leader. You actually have to use tactics and I’ve yet to defeat my oldest brother (former Army mortar man)
Blue Hawaii (former Marine Tanker)
The MK-19 was a heavy bitch. I had to hump that thing for about 2 miles on a MCRST prior to deploying overseas. I was an M47 gunner but in the weapons Co. You had to “share the love” . That could mean anything from an M2 receiver, 81mm morter base plate, AN/TAS-5 night tracker, or if your unit was real lucky, a break down M-220 TOW system! Steve W. USMC W Co. 1/9 86-90
“The MK-19 was a heavy bitch.”
Yup, the Mk-47 is just about half the weight and half the charge force, yet throws the same ‘nades at same ROF. Still very far from shoulder fired.
SOCOM version has a detachable sight module that includes day cam, I2, & thermal, rangefinder, yaw compensation, auto “BDC” and a few other nice=to=haves. I don’t think MARCORPS spent the extra $125K for the whizbang sight system to outfit all their Mk-47′s, but did buy about a dozen.
I’m real proud of that sight, even if it is overpriced. It was designed and spec’ed for first round 40 mm hit on a combat vehicle at 1500 meters. And it met it.
Humpin the gun was only a little worse than humpin the ammo, unlike the Mk-19.
Personally, in ref. to the elephant gun, I still like the 90 mm recoilless rifle…
ASL, oh how I miss this level of play.
It might not be the tank killer, but I miss the H&K PSG1.
V2
The best anti-tank weapon I know of is one of those “Future Weapons” rocket launcher that actually flys up in the air and comes down and hits the tank on it’s lightly armored top side.
But, if it’s Iraq we’re talking about, well, since the islamic terrorist usually uses either a light pickup truck with a machine gun mounted in it’s cargo bed, or a car, or truck bomb, or a suicide bomber on foot, all you need is a good ole M1 Grand sniper rifle. They’re good at 500 yards, and, you don’t need any more range than that, usually. Just hit the dirver of the suspected vehicle, or aim for the head of the idiot carrying the C4 before he makes it close to you.
Eric, I was the NCOIC of our Combined Arms Staff Trainer (CAST) trainer at Camp Lejeune, N.C. for a few years in the late 80′s. We used a War Game called TACWAR which was a war game that got all of the Marine Corps personnel from the lowest private to the MEU or MEF commanders into the fight. It was a brain child of Florida State University if I am not mistaking and a Great tool to train, practice a up coming mission with realistic battlefield situations. We could also take this game with us on our floats because it came in large containers that held the game, from squad leaders to the whole MEF’s. You should look into TACWAR to see how it could be used with real maps of real hot spots or just training sites that we Marines train at like a CAX at Twentynine Palms. Im sure other Marines could attest to the realism using this game. A good tool to have if you could get your hands on them..OOh Rahh!!! Semper Fi Devil Dogs. RazorBlade OUT…Here..
Anthony: I worked on developing the TACWAR system in the mid 80s. It was not FSU but the University of Central Florida that put it and the STEELTHRUST system together. A very interesting project.
Tony Marchesseault, Captain, USMCR (mustang)
i would still put my money on the barrett M107/M82 and with 3 and a half million armed indonesian troops on our doorstep the australia army should stop using underpowered weapons IE (RABBIT GUNS) and deploy the barrett to our standard troops in large numbers we need to use every advantage possible god knows if indonesia tries to invade us and commit genocide in the hundreds to thousands the way it did in EAST TIMOR by dumping bodys in the ocean and down water wells i would want to blow their ****ing heads off.
awesome