Up in the Morning, Full Day...

ED - Kayaker had this to say...

Blousing the boots ??? It shows discipline of the soldier and uniformity. Why is it a problem now with this generation of soldiers ?? It was NEVER an issue with those of us who served from the 80's onwards...
If you people are too hot, go back to wearing Jungle Boots then or DRINK MORE WATER and stop whining.

Let the soldier decide if he wants to blouse or not ??? Are you mad !!! You start letting Joe make up his own mind about certain things like this and he won't even get out of the rack in the morning. Get over it ! NCO's lead troops, not some rear echelon pogue or TRADOC weenies who never deploy anywhere.

Kayaker, thank you for articulating my point.  The above photograph is a picture of an Airforce Pararescue Jumper (PJ) serving in a Combat Search and Rescue (CSAR) unit in Afghanistan.  By your measure, this individual is the epitome of undisciplined - no gloves, sleeves rolled up, trousers un-bloused, and there he is, discharging his weapon from a moving helicopter (I bet he didn't call range control first...) To think that he went through at least two continuous years of some of the most intensive training the military has to offer, yet he doesn't have the self discipline to dress himself properly in the morning (I bet you he is very good at what he does though.)

The uniform for the USFS wildland firefighter consists of nomex pants, nomex long sleeved shirt, hard hat, leather boots, leather gloves, and a fire shelter.  In addition to that, as a Crew Boss, I required everyone  on my crew to pack a headlamp, spare batteries, an MRE, 1 gallon of water, 4 fusees (road flares), a mill bastard file, a personal first aid kit, a roll of fiber tape, and a change of socks in their line bag.  I didn't expect your pants and shirt to be starched and ironed, or even washed daily; it just had to be serviceable, meaning if you tore it up on the line, you replaced it at the end of shift and reported the following day ready to work.  If you used a fusee, you replaced it.  Your tools were always sharpened before next shift, and the edge was covered with a double strip of fiber tape.  On the line, you had to wear your kit; off the line you can wear what you want.  My measure of discipline was being able to come from the shift briefing, hand out briefing material to the Squad Bosses, hop in the trucks and drive to the line, not how straight the line was that they parked the trucks on the night before, whether or not the hem of a firefighter's trousers rested between the 3rd and 4th eyelettes of their boots, or if their pockets presented a bulged appearance.  It was in getting down to business, day in and day out, and getting the job done.

I think we've lost sight of that and placed form over function.  Again, when it came to wearing body armor in the cantonment area, I was told we wore it in case we got attacked or shelled.  Now that is all good and well, but then why aren't we wearing it when we're running PT?  Of all the various classifications of folk on our FOB (American Contractor, American Soldier, Special Forces, Local National, Iraqi Army, Foreign National, etc...) the only ones who wore armor on the FOB were the regular joes (everyone on the FOB, except for the non-American civilians had it, and were required to wear it if they ever left the wire).  If it's for safety, shouldn't we all wear it?  What sort of immunity do all those other folk have to artillery attacks that I don't have, and why isn't the Army buying me some of that immunity?

Now a days, when I hear leaders talk about discipline, I more often than not insert the word "stupid."  Standing out in the rain getting soaked because one person forgot their gortex isn't disciplined, it's stupid.  Putting on your armor, helmet, and ammunition to walk the 30 feet from your bunk to the porta-john, just so you can take a leak isn't disciplined, it's stupid ( it isn't smart either - just change into PTs next time.)  What we really need to focus on is getting the job done.  Unfortunately, I just see us getting more disciplined...

 

Comments

[Mike]

Eric, your piece is SPOT-ON!
Sadly, this is an institutionalized mind-set, going back decades. For example, when I served as a 19D10 (Cavalry Scout) in Germany in the late 1970's, the policy was "mirror-shined Jump Boots".(We had to pay for the Corcorans out of our own pockets). No biggie, I lived in the barracks, so I had the cash for a pair for wear in garrison. I soon found out that they were expected to be worn IN THE FIELD as well. So much for the element of cover/concealment...you know...Scouts...Recon...No matter, the spit-shined boots and starched fatigues were "a sign of a highly disciplined troopie". Never mind that the glare from the boots could be seen a mile away...or the stupidity of sending troops that were supposed to be camoflaged out in STARCHED FATIGUE uniforms (This was in the pre-BDU Army...yeah, I'm THAT old). These details were alleged indicators of a well-trained, well-disciplined unit. I'm glad to see that the Army still functions. Our running joke was the riddle:
Q-What's the difference between the Army and the Cub Scouts?
A-The Cub Scouts have Adult Leadership.
Some things never change,no?

[Madrocketscientist]

I understand that kind of uniform discipline in boot camp, or while on base away from the action, but when you are forward deployed, the soldier, or at the very least, the unit should decide what is appropriate uniform to get the job done.

I was Navy, part of an LCAC crew, and we wore woodland cammo BDUs instead of OD greens or dungarees. However, when we flew the LCAC, we wore OD flight suits. On one deployment, the CO of the ship was an Admin weenie who was running a ship for the sole purpose of getting his bird. Of course, this meant that uniform regulations were followed to the letter. The dumbest instance of this was one day, while we were getting ready to fly, the prop pitch control module on one of the props died. Us techs were all over the props like a bunch of OD suited monkeys as we tore the prop apart to get at the module. We were in the sun, and the temp was about 102, so we wrapped rags around our heads to keep the sun off, and tied the sleeves of our flight suits around our waists so we could keep cool. The CO made us stop working, go up to our berthing, and change into our Winter Issue BDUs because the Admiral of the ARG might fly over head in a helo and see us out of uniform.

[Mr.Sparkle]

Sparkling clean gun.

The rest is horseshit for parades and marketing.

[airtaz]

whether or not if he is a good troop MUST also include his ability to follow direction and orders
the wearing of his UNIFORM is part of the requirement of being a airman as well as a soldier in general
discipline and being a GOOD troop requires ALL aspects and not only while serving in combat

[kris021858]

blousing of the boots (actually tucking them into the boot) and tucking the shoestring into the boot comes from the jungle days of warfare. I dont know who started the elastic bootblousings, but the thought behind these things are disturbing. like the ACU. who's the contractor that got this?? and who's the idiot that thought they were tactical??? the soldier pictured here may not be properly bloused, but who's to say the flight commander didnt set that? heat cat 5? the soldier is NOT in a tactical situation. BUT, blousing the trousers will keep the sand out (reducing chafing and blisters). i'll bet the soldier will figure out whether he wants them bloused or unbloused after getting a few spiders, scorpions, fleas and other critters inside his boots.

NAVSPECWARGRUONE

[TACtrained killer]

I think the entire issue has resulted from too many years spent in garrison without a real war to fight. Yes, uniformity is important, however, if Joe drops out with heat exhaustion then it really doesn't matter what he looks like, because the job isn't getting done!

[Canis]

In my admittedly limited experience, the only time that it really matters whether or not you have your boots bloused and everything is when there are brass running around. Aside from that is can be up to your own tastes, unless directed differently by an NCO. If you are hot and on a hump, un-blouse when you freaking stop, and if there will be brass at the end fix it before you hit base. Ta-da you are squared away whenever it matters!

[SSG K]

I'm an Infantry Squad leader. I am not a garrison Soldier.

I've been places. I've seen things.

Uniform discipline is important. Where did this notion of "it doesn't matter because we're at war" come from? You wear your uniform properly. You have the proper haircut. You do what you're supposed to do. That is all.

I've watched it happen too many times. First uniforms start looking like dog shit. Then muzzle discipline goes all to hell along with weapons safety and clearing procedures. Undisciplined Soldiers get other Soldiers killed.

If I can't trust a Joe to tie his damn boots, I can't trust him to follow my orders when it counts. Small things; "Petty" Things, Like wearing your cover when you're supposed to, do not make a squared away Soldier, but they tell a story. I can look at a Joe and tell you if I want him with me in combat. It's attention to detail.

Don't pretend to compare what we do to any other war. We eat in chow halls, we sleep "inside the wire", we have the oppurtunity to do PT, to go to the PX, to walk into the Finance, to email home, to eat Burger King. Do we do any of this in a Class A or Class B uniform? Do we have to wear our Class As or Class Bs on leave? Or on Pass, or when we go home? They managed to do that for just about every other war but we're too lazy. We are too priviledged. We wear what we want, because we're combat Soldiers. The World owes us a living.

We're Soldiers, not mercenaries.

Suck it up.
Stop whining.
Be a man.
Have some self respect and Pride.
Do your job. A Soldiers Job.

[Jeremy]

I also am a "Infantry" squad leader. I suppose I must not be a good one because I don't care if my guys go on patrol in their pajamas. Weapons are cleaned, my guys do their jobs and do it well. We always complete our mission. Everything else to me is trivial nonsense. Until my dying day, Uniforms will be an inside the wire issue.

[Nick84]

Most people don't really look "outside the box" or see the bigger picture. If you look at the picture yes he has his sleeves rolled, pants unbloused or tucked, and he is firing a weapon from a moving helo... For all we know like some one mentioned it was Heat cat 5. The PJ may be shooting at a target i.e performing target practice or performing a weapon function test before he enters a hot zone. I am a NCO in the Air Force, I have been reprimanded because I had my pant legs bloused to far out side of my boots. What the person didn't know was that I had just came off the flight line and due to my job I had un-tucked them a bit more for better movement. Sometimes people need to ask questions first instead of jumping off the cliff called assumption. At the begging of shit if my Airmen's uniforms as squared and nice. I could careless what they look like later because they are going to get the job done no matter what.

[Daniel]

there's always someone more interested in guys side burn length than planning a mission. those obsessed with uniformity are often the same geniuses that think intentionally giving your soldiers hypothermia is "hard". leaders who lack the ability to think hide behind uniformity as they feel threatened when they dont have a logical answer for why one has to do stupid things.

i dont know where navspec poser guy has been but two tours in iraq and nothing ever crawled down my unbloused boot...

ssg k your a great example of a "leader" who just does what hes told. just make sure your patches are placed accordingly instead of making sure your squad is competent, but hey they look good.

[Eric Baxter]

Gee.... my father served in WWII as a grunt, fought his way across France and Germany and earned his CIB and Bronze Star in the process, and of the many pictures he brought home of him and his buddies, the few that ever showed him or his buddies 'spit shined' or 'starched' were ones taken in GARRISON or on PASS or LEAVE... The rest were candid representations of life in a combat environment replete with unbuckled chin straps (OH MY LORD), missing leggings (OH, THE HUMANITY)field jackets unfastened (ALERT THE MEDIA)!! There is a time and place for everything, and this superfluous bitching about crap like unbloused boots in 140 degree heat is exactly the sort of thing that makes 'leadership' look as stupid as it does sometimes. If you want perfect uniforms, go be a recruiting poster, a REMF, a poag, a fobbit, but stay the hell out of the SOLDIER'S way in the process.

[CMN]

The last post by Eric is correct. Its all based on the time period you are in. I've seen the photo's as well of my grandfather and his buddies from WWII. Shirts open, chin straps unhooked..Are you calling the old vets "undisciplined"? The point is, TIMES CHANGE! My personal opinion is, I really do not like the direction of SOME of the changes myself. Though I realize this is a new age. Get over that and stop bitching. The battlefield is not the time for nit picky shit. If your joes are not grown ass men, CHAPTER their asses out.. that should really be the focus of this topic. CHAPTER!

[iraqrecall]

Ask Gen. Paton what he thought
His troops in WWII wore ties had to shave every day and look as sharp as they could. You Knew they where Patons troops when you saw them. It was a matter of PRIDE

[denny004]

In garrison, it is important to be "squared away" In some ways you can get a feeling for the morale of the troops by the way there uniforms are being worn and its a matter of pride in thr uniform. In the field I think it less so that the uniform be perfect. there was nothing better than a field jacket liner to keep you warm.

[Ryan]

Bloused, Unbloused, who cares as long as the job gets done. Leave the uniformity for garrison, as long as they have the required items the troops should be able to set up their kit and uniforms for what works best for them. I never wore polished boots or starched uniforms in the field and I always set up my LBE different than what command wanted it to be, but I had what I needed where I needed it. As far as Heat Cat. 5 the only place I ever saw that was in Basic. I prefer to keep my boots bloused anyway, it does keep out little nasties like deer ticks and chiggers.

[Reaper]

In the current venacular of the Facebook/Tweeter nation WTH! OMG! LMAOL!This is why "regular" Army troops have issues. Take a REAL look at SOF/NSW forces, on the battle field they are desheveled but not undisciplined! in garrison, there is no warrior more squared away than a SOF warrior and there is no warrior more capable and proffessional on the battle field. try going on a DA with pants bloused, sleeves rolled down, patches on, no glint tape while running, diveing through doorways, windows or running through the mountains and valleys of Afg. I promise you your pants will not stay bloused and you will roll your sleeves up! all the REMF, pogues and fibbits...just get me my beans, bullets and batteries to me!

[RVN11B40]

All this pissin' and moanin' about boots being not being shined, sleeves rolled or unrolled, starched uniforms out in the field,and so forth has got to be from a bunch of REMFs.

The mission dictates the wearing of uniforms and equipment.

All the rest is pedantic bullshit.

[killo serafin]

THE WAY I SEE IT IF YOUR GOING
TO BE A SOLDIER THEN DRESS LIKE IT OTHER WISE GET YOUR
DUMB ASS OUT AND GO HOME. WA

[antoniomact]

i did an enlistment in the army and the corp....i took pride in my uniform regardless, if we were in the desert at NTC all month alone or at main side....you should always stay lock and cock...

[NeoConVet]

laughable. The trooper is a grunt and at some point in his long day it is about being comfortable even for a few moments.

As for firing from a chopper, I hope he left a few Islamofacist in the dirt. In my war we used to announce closing time in the nearby rice paddies with a 50 cal chopping up a an area close to wear the people worked....they did get the message.

[Juan]

Who gives a flying rats ass Too many more important things to think about or deal with. Ooh Rah that armchair quarterback. I didnt care how the troops set up their uniform outside the wire as long as it wasnt ridiculous. Once they came back, time to square yourself away. Really lets demote him.

[Fortin0311]

Garrison rules are just that, for garrison. I dont need some POG telling me how to wear my uniform outside the wire. Maybe motor T needs to blouse their boots out in thier convoys, but a grunt should be able to do what he wants with his damn cammies. You go hump a pack and a combat load of ammo and then tell me to drink more water when my jungle boots are soaked through with sweat. Yeah, the 80's must have been tough back in the States.

[DScoutSniper]

WTFO? I guess working in a 2 man situation most of the time and very small numbers the rest of the time I'm just out of touch with the line troops. We don't cut our hair or beards, we wear what we want, carry the weapons we find most effective for us personally and yet we are HIGHLY EFFECTIVE. I just don't understand how this can be without our trousers bloused and high & tight hair cuts!!!

[Commodore Heru-Paule Le Breton]

Thank God for the NCO's and their Practical Discernment !
One would not go into a battle zone wearing Burmuda shorts; or
wearing spit-shined boots !

[John W.]

Commander Marcinko "Red Cell" etc. wrote the modern book on training gear....

[truck 0540]

dose anyone realize that the air force is on a different sheet of music. it was probaly ok for that pj, to have his boot's unbloused and sleeve's rolled up. sometime in 1982 the stars and stripes, ran an article showing af combat air controler'sout in the field, wearing us issued cammie's and wearing a non us issued boonie hat. while sitting on a tailgate of a blue plymouth volare station wagon. figure that 1 out. when iwas @2/2 cav in bamberg frg. we could wear the marines wool pully under your od green fatiuge shirts and later on the bdu's. and have if we wanted to tape a hunting knife to your lbe. not heart burn from anyone. the only time igot any hurt burn from anyone was an fng when ileft the unit after c.q. . i left wearing carhart cammies to go bow hunting. itold this fng to mind his own businees and to get a life. when this jerk told me icouldn't leave wearing my civilan cammie's. and wearing spit shine boots and starched fatigues sounds like some hq type was bucking for promotion. or just left a training battalion. or just a complete moron. eveybody knows starched fatigues and spit shine boots dont belond out in the field.

[Murphy]

Dude is hunting moose with Sara Palin!

[truck 0540]

dude was headed to the power lines in easton, mass. or around townsend, mass. hunting with sara palin.wont happen she could be the deer camp house mouse.

[Marcus Bailey]

Lets get back to the basics.

[Eric]

When I served, I hated the pomp and circumstance. Never understood the spit shined boots, pressed uniforms and all that. I was infantry for God's sake! Let me get dirty, let me "shine" under my camo. I usually ended up taking the 25 or 50 pushups for unpressed uniforms or poorly shined boots because I knew the real soldier stuff was not this garrison crap, it was the field craft. How good was I in the woods was a hundred times more important that how good I looked in garrison.

[vern]

Look at his gear. He's a cowboy. Cowboy's don't blouse boot's.

[Jeff the Baptist]

Are you calling the old vets "undisciplined"?

Yes. By modern standards they were highly undisciplined. I've had decorated D-Day vets from the 101st tell me that their unit was often little more than an undisciplined rabble. And it wasn't just uniform standards. Soldiers routinely went AWOL or refusing orders from superior officers.

[AFSOC SOWT]

Having been a member of the Special Forces community of both Army and Air Force, the photographed pararescue person is in his duty uniform dictated to him by his NCO. "unconventional" is a term the majority of the regular military forces have not understood since "Special Operations" conception. The British could not understand the American colonists hiding behind trees and firing instead of formations. One aspect of the so called "unprofessional or undisciplined look" is exactly that.. to not look like the regular military forces in the area of operations. Many times we dressed like the local personnel we were helping or working along side. Its one thing to be a company size force running around prim and proper looking for the combat camera guy and another to be a team of six or less trying not to be noticed mixed in with indigenous forces trying to gather intell or rescue someone behind enemy lines.

[brandon]

I'm airborne infantry with the 82nd Abn Div. i don't care if my guys tie their boots or not. we get the job done, and we do it well. uniform discipline is bullshit when it comes to deployments. if you are more comfortable not bloused, then go for it. when the bullets start flying, we kill the enemy and get our jobs done. that's all that matters.

[ANNETTE SABADO]

Suck up and drive on with the mission! If you are conducting a mission conduct the mission, but inside the wire play the darn game. The military has rules/regulations for a reason. The "NEW" Soldiers (many) do not show discipline or proper military bearing. It is up to the leaders to keep Soldiers in check!

MAGRA

[Soda Jones]

When we were attacked by terrorists on 9/11 I made up my mind to join the Marine Corps and protect my country as soon as I was old enough.

When I first joined there were still a few SNCO anal barracks rats from the 80s and 90s that continued to dictate utter bull++++. However, combat reveals who the real leaders are and how they can really perform.

Thankfully for our unit, the anal barracks rats were quickly revealed as the ass hats everyone knew them to be. My goal was to go on and commission as an officer in the Corps. That goal has changed because I realize now that once the Corps' involvement in Afghanistan ends, the anal barracks rats will start creeping back into the Marine Corps. They are expert box checkers and ass kissers.

I realize now that the Marine Corps is probably the most unsatisfying and miserable place a person could be during a "time of peace." I will no longer be serving in the Corps at the end of my current enlistment and will be transferring to the Coast Guard which is always on mission whether we are at war or peace.

This anal barracks crap is alright for the barracks but it's lunacy in the field.

[lupo68007]

Get off of it! He is doing his job, you don't know what he is into at the moment. Stop living in the past. No one cares, because you are not there. Stay in your own lane, as you Army ppl say! Hooyah, Navy!