From our own Military.com news page comes word that the
Army’s Training and Doctrine Command wants to dump bayonet training. New
recruits just don’t have enough time to learn all they need to prepare them for
today’s wars in a 10-week basic training course, so teaching soldiers to gut
the enemy with a few inches of pig iron has got to go, according to Army Lt.
Gen. Mark Hertling.
quoted as saying. He said bayonets don’t fit on modern rifles anyway so the
training was kind of pointless.
Now, how long does it take to train a soldier to stick a
bayonet into the enemy? Maybe five minutes of classroom time spent drawing out
the idea on a chalkboard and then a few practice runs stabbing a straw filled
dummy, I would think. After all, most humans intuitively know how to jab
something with a sharp stick.
While I think most would agree that bayonet training may be
a bit superfluous on today’s battlefields, the training might have some value in
providing soldiers some of that “warrior spirit,” because further down in the story we
read this:
“Hertling
also wants combatives or hand-to-hand fighting to de-emphasize grappling or
basic wrestling moves. Instead, Soldiers need to learn to fight with their
hands and use anything they can grab — whether it is a knife or stick — as a
weapon, he added.
Recruits
need to learn how to use their hands, the
Louis
have never been in a fistfight," he added.”
Never been in a fistfight? What are they teaching kids in high
school these days?
{ 52 comments… read them below or add one }
Having gone through basic training less than one year ago, I can say it takes at least 12 hours of training. This is about equal to the amount of time spent in cultural awareness briefings.
maybe we need to teach recruits fist fighting. Get them that warrior spirit. They put you in the gas chamber to see what chemical weapons are like. Why not punch them in the face to show them what fist fighting feels like?
good answer ;)
Today to be politically correct there is zero tolerance in schools on fighting. Also kids are to busy with x box and they are already great warriors. Bayonet training is still useful and can save lives. Actually more weapons should be bayonet friendly. Even without a blade on the weapon bayonet training can make it a last ditch weapon.
More time should be spent training on the use of as many weapons as possible. This includes enemy weapons and any weapon in the squad
I like the idea of a punch in the face during training, save several hours of time well spent on other things. They did love taps to the tummy during vietnam war to skip the disciplinary pushups for more time.
When i went to fort jackson, we did not do bayonet. i dont think anyone where at jackson did. wish i did though.
If nothing else it builds confidence. But then who needs confidence in combat? Semper Fidelis. Blackcoat.
Maybe some Army people should look at the Marines Boot Camp. They have it right! I am scared for these solders if their top people are saying there is not enough time to train you properly. Whats next? Are they just going to show up at a recuiter,be given a rifle then and send off with no training?
I WAS BAYONET INSTRUCTOR AT CAMP BRECKINRIDGE, KY IN 1951 IN ORDER TO PREPARE TROOPS TO FIGHT IN KOREA..IT BUILDS THE OFFENSIVE SPIRIT AS WELL AS MORE CONFIDENCE IN YOU ABILITY IN COMBAT….I AM A WWII, CILD WAR AND TWO TIME VIETNAM VET, AIRBORNE INF. THE GEN IS FULL OF IT……
I WAS BAYONET INSTRUCTOR AT CAMP BRECKINRIDGE, KY IN 1951 IN ORDER TO PREPARE TROOPS TO FIGHT IN KOREA..IT BUILDS THE OFFENSIVE SPIRIT AS WELL AS MORE CONFIDENCE IN YOU ABILITY IN COMBAT….I AM A WWII, CILD WAR AND TWO TIME VIETNAM VET, AIRBORNE INF. THE GEN IS FULL OF IT……
I just went through about eight months ago. Biggest waste of time? Convoy Live Fire. There was probably 3 whole days devoted to that, IN ADDITION to the actual exercise. Every drill sergeant said the same thing:it’s absolutely pointless. I say keep the bayonet training; I agree that it instills the importance of the Warrior instinct so to speak.
ive only been to a range once in the last two years but have been to 6 cultural awareness,4 equal opportunity,4 suicide prevention classes and classes on human trafficking and some othert p.c. crap. oh yeah i go to afghanistan in 3 months.
We need to teach Soldiers how to fight. Build there confidence and muscle memory skills. Look at Afghanistan. Soldiers have been overrunned more than once. Hand to Hand, Combatives, Bayonet, Cultural awarness, Language Training etc should be part of Every Soldiers training and continuing education. I have over 30 years in the Army and feel the Marines have it right.
Yeah a lot of schools are expelling kids for fist fights. Back when I went they still were but everyone didn’t say anything. I think we should have them shoot until it hurts like the marines. Make everyone sharpshooters.
Defense tech has the same article pretty much. Well I stated there that right now we don’t tend out to run out of ammo that much we seem to have enough supplies but if there is ever a large conflict there is a high likelyhood that people will run out of ammo and if you don’t have bayonet training then your straight up ****ed.
Aside from re-thinking military policies like having an “open” policy about sexual preference and now taking the foundation of “tough” military training which use to make our service pretty tough what’s next taking away combat colors for bright psycology love colors to create a clam enviorment. “What is our world comming to?”
This general sounds like he’s full of p.c. crap bayonet fighting is part of being a soldier.Apparently the general hasn’t noticed that modern bayonets do fit on modern rifles. As long as there are wars and a need for troops on the ground there will always be a need for soldiers learning how to defend themselves witha bayonet. All the other countries in the world still teach it to their soldiers and I’m sure the terrorists also learn how to fight that way.
Keep the bayonet training, get rid of the General. He is and idiot
We are also already taught to use our body and hands as weapons and that anything you get your hands on is and can be a weapon.
I have an “out of the box” idea…how ’bout making Basic 11 weeks instead of 10 so they have time to do the bayonet training? …or maybe they could give the sensivity training concurrently during the bayonet assault course. Pipe-in some guru music and some yoga freak telling each troop to love and respect all things….thrust, thrust, buttstroke, whirl!! What makes the grass grow?
My training was at Fort Jackson, I spent days killing with bayonet with my M-16, I never use that bayonet in Vietnam, a lot of the training were a wasting time in training for Vietnam, what we need was more training about Guerrilla tactic, they never teach me how to use the M-60 maching gun, in duty guard they put me an M-60 to patrol de perimeter at night, they never teach me to use the M-79 granade launcher, to guard a bunker they put one in my hand without instruction. Vietnam was crasy, they show me to use the hand granade, I never saw one in my unit, they show me to use the field compass, they never give me a compass in case we get lost on those mountain west of Quang Tri. Yes, they need to fix things for those soldier going into battle in Gerrilla tactic.
One impotant aspect I learned in Vietnam, why so many civilian male and female were working inside our compound, most of them were not friendly, they were collecting information of the location about the Base, number of soldier in the Base, what kind of fortication we had, Pieces of Artillery, location of the Bunkers, location of the communication Bunker, location where the Unit Coloner live, and most of the Captain and the rest of the Official. Was so strange that the Mortal hit thoses area with amazing direct hit, I remember the Barber, them next day he was in the perimmeter wire death in the fire fight that night,since that I started taking care of me to survive and comback alive, same history is repeated in Iraq an Aghanistan.
I think they should teach recruits the fighting style of Krav Maga. It is very effective and easy to learn.
I had bayonet training at
ft Ord during my eight week basic and it lasted for a week there was not only those skills taught but general how to kill quickly and the points on the body where you could inflick the most damage. Then there was five weeks of AIT and more how to’s I then went to recon (LRRP) training and there were more in depth how to’s they saved my life mort than once in the nam and I see no reason not to train for the worst. it can bring out the best, because when it comes that time you better be the baddest in the fight or your on your way home in a bag. Generals there a waste of flesh.
Damn!! The whole army has turn into the National Guard
Maybe eugene should take another look at the national guard before he makes fun of it, I know a lot of guard units that would make the regular army look pretty bad
I think the General misses the point (bad pun) of bayonet training, although almost all the Grunts here know it well: A Troopie has to fight with whatever he has on hand, be ir a rifle, bayonet, grenade,…Hell, even one’s e-tool makes a dandy close-in fighting tool. To hell with all this PC bulls**t, and start teaching our recruits in every branch (NOT “Warfighters”, who in hell came up with THAT line of crap???)to obey orders and to NEVER quit. The name of the game in Basic is NOT to teach “cultural sensitivity”, it is to teach how to make the OTHER SOB die for HIS country…by any means at hand. And, General, Sir, A Bayonet on the end of a rifle held by a well-trained SOLDIER or MARINE is a very damned effective means of doing just that!
I can’t even believe they came up with that or maybe i can, can anybody say cost cutting, soon it’s going to be, Bullets cost to much so everyone trains with an xbox. what the f*ck. I can just see bin laden in his cave laughing his ass off
Every bit of training has its place if there is not enough time to train on the bayonet then more time should be added to boot camp.
the army is too dependent on technology, which can fail at any time all soldiers need to know how to operate without the tech BS
WTF. The Army can’t drop the bayonet training. They just going Nerd mode. All that Hi-tech crap, man I understand it looks cool. But keep the bayonet training because its cool and it gets rid of your Sissy character. Anyway I just hope the Marines don’t drop the bayonet because that’s where I’m going. Horaaah!!!
The problem is our military is too small and I agree with the general bayonet training is useless as tits on a tadpole. An idiot can attach a bayonet to a weapon and stick someone with it. We need a million man active duty army. All of the guard forces are being used improperly to save the government money. What good is bayonet training when you have an enemy that has no intentions are meeting you at close range. It is called shoot and scoot. Best tactics when your enemy is superior. Can’t kill what you can’t see. I am a Air Force Vietnam Veteran. Charlie taught us that but I guess we never learn, that is why our 11B are still carrying rut sacks in a desert and mountain terrain. Crazy to me but I was not a grunt.
can the sissy stuff, teach them to kill and bust up the other guys stuff … bullets, bayonets, karate, aikido, all of it ’cause you never know when or where … if you are going to war then win it. enough of this ‘feel good’ nice people BS. two kinds of warriors, people, the quick and the dead.
Bayonet training is a must! If only for the phycological element. Imagine, the enemy is running out of ammo and decide to bayonet charge your position? You will shit bricks! And for those of you who think that this hasn’t happened in decades, Filipino troops did just that on an Insurgent position in Iraq. I think they were Filipino anyway, but that is just one event that happened in the last couple of years
Let’s see three tours in Nam, Panama, Iraq x’s three and never wanted to fight face to face. Rifle training; practice and more practice. Long distance, is the best and only way to fight now days. Snipers reach out and touch someone, screw hand to hand.
I dont think bayonet training in basic training and then never again is worth the time or effort. If soldiers are going to learn this in initial entry, it should be something that is part of unit training for every unit in the Army. Not just basic training units and the elite. It shouldbe something they train up on on a regular basis. I went through Basic in 1994 and honestly, forgot that crap before graduation day. Its either not enough and get rid of it or remphasize it through out a soldiers career so they can actually become good at it… I would hate to be the soldier with 4 years in finding myself in a hand to hand struggle for my life with some A-hole who thinks Im the infadel while Im trying to remember what drill sgt. so and so told me 4 years earlier… With ongoing training, it becomes instinct and thats how we win, thats how we stay alive.
Wow, I’m having flash backs of Jimmy Carter. I was an Infantry Sgt. During his reign . We were told to stop bayonet and hand to hand training. That’s the main reason I got out after 9 years. I went from a professional soldier to a babysitter.
There is on such thing as to much training
Perhaps LTG Hertling should talk to the men of the Princess of Wales Royal Regiment about the usefulness of the bayonet charge in modern warfare.
Forget war, make love. I am waiting to get my copy of K.I. Sock it Dogs and the Wing Commander at poclt.com.
Every soldier should learn to kill with the cold blue steel. Learning to weild a blade is the most basics of combat skills. Some generals have spent way to much time behind their desks.
1. place bayonet on end of rifle.
2. stick bayonet into soft part of enemy in a real aggressive manner while evading enemies attempt to stick their bayonet into you.
3. yell while doing above.
4. try very, very hard next time NOT to run out of floggin’ ammo.
What if the enemy has a bayonet.and you are out of ammo?You should learn to disarm the enemy and use the bayonet on them
I’m glad the USMarines are not talking about doing this Bull shit.
It has been aa very long time sice there was an accepted instance of bayonet fighting by a unit. I think it was in Korea.
I never had the occassion to do it but we did geet the chance to bayonet a hanging pig. It takes aa lot more effort to penetrate flesh and it takes a different thought process but I would think it was well worth the minimum hours needed. Be prepared that’s the motto.
At my age (75) I think I could still handle it.
Ask a platoon leader, not a general what’s needed for training. they’ll know.
Semper fi.
Having survived Viet Nam, VOLAR, the Quality Initiatives, Diversity, PC, sexual harassment, RREO, and and a whole heaping passle of other recurring NON mission essential training, I fear that we’ve lost sight of the Infantry’s mission! Have we have forgotten that the Infantryman is to “close with and destroy the enemy by fire and close combat”? A sharp, pointy bayonet on the end of an empty M4 is a whole lot better than trying to punch someone in body armor!
Unfortunately we, as leaders, have allowed politics and fear of not making quota to drive the training. An Infantryman should be trained to kill the enemy, seize terrain, and destroy the enemy’s ability to fight, not to be concerned with ROE that have more to do with polls than protecting soldiers.
After more than 33 years in the Infantry, from E1 to O6, we owe our Infantry the best, harshest, and fiercest training along with the leadership and tools to accomplish the mission……..and that includes the bayonet!
If that won’t fly, we can wait until the Haji gets close enough to hit him with an Affirmative Action Power Point presentation. That ought to bring him to tears and scream torture!
a rifle can run out of bullet but a knife always cuts even if is dull, just put a little more momentum and it get the job done. i think they should go back to the basic. blood make the grass grow. thats what i learned at ft. jackson.i got a stupid question. what’s going to happen when their fancy rifle run the batteries out. this new soldiers or warriors how they are call now a day need some old school training.
enogh said
just a thought- why not extend the Army’s basic a week or three?
Ive done my MACP leave 1 class and work as much as I can with the 2, 3 and 4s as I can. There is a reason why the fist thing we teach in MACP is grapling. Most people dont know how to strike. And most fights end up on the ground. Take a boxer and a wrestler. Yes the wrestler may take a hit to the face. But if he can get the fight on the ground he wins. I will also say if Im in a fire fight and run out of ammo. I want to be able to put a blade on my rifle. Ied rather gut the bad guy at 4 feet rather than arms reach.
Combatives can be fun and has its place, but the training is pretty useless in the practical sense. It is good to learn how to subdue someone, but it doesn’t take much more than armbar. I would say spend more time training on adaptive fighting like Krav Maga combined with knife fighting and a some police techniques. The clench drill still gets people used to getting hit though and should stay.
No more ‘Cold Steel’ training? John Wayne is dead!
Bayonet training and the resultant muscle memory saved me from lumps more than once. Some people become idiots when you mix beer, 8 ball pool, and money. Their first instinct seems to be to swing the pool cue in their hand. Bayonet training is not only offensive in nature, but also defensive. Blocking their swing was automatic, as was the followup vertical butt stroke. Didn't carry as much weight, but the results were the same. I spent a full career in the Marines, never had to use the bayonet, although more than once the command "fix bayonets" was made in my 28 months in the RVN. There can never be enough training nor instruction. Wake up Army! The PC crap is foisted on us by society and Congress, but it should be in addition to, not instead of, warrior training.==Gunny J