The Army is moving ahead smartly with its XM25 shoulder
fired, semi-automatic 25mm grenade launcher with plans to spend $34 million on
further development in 2011 and a production start slated for 2012, according
to service budget documents. The Army plans to buy at least 12,500 of the
weapons beginning in 2012, enough to put one in each infantry squad and special
forces team, according to PEO Soldier.
The futuristic looking XM25 fires a “smart” High Explosive
Airburst round out to around 600 meters. The smart round is a “counter
defilade” round, designed to blast enemy infantry taking cover behind walls,
cars, in trenches as well as enemy fighters dumb enough to be standing out in
the open. The Army calls the weapon a “leap ahead” technology.
the weapon’s micro-computer accounts for air pressure, temperature and the 25mm
round’s ballistics, feeds that information to a microchip in the round itself
programming it to detonate directly over the target. With a 600 meter effective
range, it would provide small teams greatly enhanced lethality well beyond that
of rifles and machine guns. The Army claims that tests showed the XM25 with the
high-explosive round is 300 percent more lethal than current squad level
weapons.
The XM25 could prove enormously useful to troops in
battling Taliban insurgents that typically fire from the cover of tree lines
and from behind mud walls. This is the first weapon, at least that I have seen,
that could provide infantry with a lethal, accurate and effective grenade
launcher that exceeds that of the ubiquitous RPGs carried by insurgent groups
around the world.
One potential weakness I've noticed is that the XM25 only has a four round magazine. The Army believes the weapon's lethality will come from its pinpoint accuracy rather than rate of fire.
{ 130 comments… read them below or add one }
This moneypit of smallarms development has wounded test personnel – from reports, damn near killed at least one, and maimed more then that – and failed to resolve several of the crucial hurdles involved with it being an effective means of stacking bodies.
Not the least of which is the small explosive charge, small fragmenting jacket, and the need for it to have an outward velocity of fragments that is competitive with the forward velocity insofar as getting said targets to reach and cause significant effect on the targets – not quite so neat as in the PPTs and videos that occasionally get distributed.
Its not a grenade launcher, its not half as smart in demonstration as it is in concept (as has been explained to me and demonstrated in its testing record), and mathematics suggest that just as 40mm HEDP is inferior in generic fleshy target to the HE it supplanted, so will this round be relative to the HEDP.
well ait you the know it all, there so many feel your wrong and it's the best small weapon in yrs
I used an “over and under” in Vietnam which is an M-16 rifle on top and an Grenade Launcher underneath. The advantage of the grenade launcher was that you could use it like a mortar through indirect fire. For example, if you were in some woods, you could fire indirect fire over the top of the woods, undetected and protected by the woods, into an open area. Further, you could use the grenade launcher to launch flares, clear areas suspected of hiding the enemy (tree lines), and otherwise fire into areas into which an enemy was suspected of hiding.
The advanatage of an “over and under”, also, is that when in a fire fight, you could switch to firing the M-16 while the others were reloading thus maintaing fire superiority. I am not suggesting that this new weapons is not a superior weapon. However, the realities of combat may not be conceptualized in this weapons such that the same need to be encorporated into the same.
Every weapon system has growing pains. This would supply selective threat elimination in an urban environment by providing an unmanned “suicide bomber”. Payback is a ….
This sure seems like an over-engineered solution to a pretty basic problem. The reason the RPG has been so effective and enduring is that it is simple – no fancy electronics, sights, and special rounds.
Enemies have been hiding behind cars, ditches, tree lines, and hedges for centuries, and soldiers have found creative and effective ways to eliminate the threat with pretty fundamental solutions, i.e. no technology required. I wonder if the man in the field was ever consulted on his perspective of the problem and what kind of innovative solutions he would recommend.
I bet the answer wouldn’t include new technologies, a dependence on batteries, and an expensive development track.
The Army should not spend money developing this weapon, let the developers develop it.
Just replace the 40mm over and under on the M-16 with
the 25mm gun and see if the round will work without the electronics. Does the 25mm have the explosive capacity to
disable a vehicle with accuracy out to say 200 yards direct fire. And get it into combat now, The ability to carry more rounds will pay off. Mount it on vehicles with belt feed and see what happens.
M-79
K.I.S.S.
More focus on gizmos instead of good old fashioned soldiering.
The only problem is the 4 round magazine. Hopefully, The test are honest and the troops get weapon that will best serve their need.
We keep developing sophisticated weapons while our enemies kill us with simple stuff..RPG, IED
25mm shaped charge has about 7 inches of rolled homogeneous steel penetration, similar to the 25mm cannon on the Bradley. (Not many threats use that kind of armor any more, but it is a useful reference target) It is so low because of the spin imparted by rifling. A smaller, lighter grenade would have equal penetration if it was fin stabilized. For example 18mm (12 gauge) could have similar penetration with less than half the weight, half the recoil, and greater range, if fin stabilized. I don’t know if the electronics could be made to fit in a smaller package, but suspect that it would be possible.
—-> WHY DO YOU TELL ANYONE,
—-> ABOUT THE ARMY’S SECRET
—-> NEW EQUIPMENT, U-JERK…
Because it is a tactic to give out this information.And you reacted and this is what they wanted in the first place.How do you like them now?
—-> WHY DO YOU TELL ANYONE,
—-> ABOUT THE ARMY’S SECRET
—-> NEW EQUIPMENT, U-JERK…
Really? I can’t believe we need another weapon. We really have all that we need. The research and development dollars could be better spent in peacetime activities. That is taking care of our own at home and helping the world rather than killing them. Please don’t spend my tax money on more war.
I would like to know how fast it aquires the target.How long would I have to expose myself to the enemy.How well it works in the wind,dust rain snow etc….How heavy.I still like an over/under and some good old pineapples.
I have a far more better weapon.But that is water over the bridge for you.And I am not for the enemy called veri-chip Military one world order takeover.
Looks like their going to need a bigger magazine…like the fact that it blows up over targets and showers them with shrapnel, dislike the fact it is only 20mm…like the 600 meters, dislike the 20mm…like the computer chips in EACH shell or cartridge, dislike the fact that it will be hell to carry enough rounds, because you’re going to need 3 times as many rounds due to it being 20 mm…
Okay, 25mm not 20 mm…still pretty much smaller than 40mm. Ask anyone who has shot a 40mm from a 203 or an old M-79…less is not more !!! It’s about the size of a 12 gauge shell going down range and blowing up with shrapnel…are we just trying to make the bad guys pissed off at us ???
This will save lives. 600 meters will reduce enemy size, impact their ego, and most important save our soldiers and marines lives.
let the company develop this gizmo. Improve/twick the 40mm ammo some more. And indirect fire for guys hunkered in ditches & cover, which is where we like to hide, does require a munition that comeing in @ a relitively high/steep angle
Hey Joe Peacemaker, our military is one of the few places listed specifically in the Constitution that Congress can LEGALLY spend our tax dollars. Not education, not welfare, not… you should get the point by now. If only the current administration treated our enemies like they do our troops or FoxNews…?
Very interesting! Nice kit, if it works.
ONLY 4 rounds. That changes this from a weapon I would want to carry into a fire fight to something VERY heavy that I will only carry as a specialist weapon because I will still need to haul my m-4 in case I actually get into a fire fight.
The result is that this weapon is going to be left at the FOB, left on a vehicle, or carried by only VERY highly trained infantry who have MUCH more faith in weapon than I have. hiking the magazine capacity to 10 or so would make this a much more useful weapon.
Dear “Joe Peacemaker” (feb 8 8:03)
How did that work for you in 1938, and the 1990s. Qui desiderat pacem preparat bellum.
dobra din commi!
I would hope that they would extend the mag capacity. Its a no brain er. As for suggestions that we avoid going high tech because our enemies are not sophisticated? That’s not smart. Let us not forget that we have other, smarter enemies waiting in the wings for tomorrow’s wars. China, Russia, Korea, and who knows…. Canada, if their citizens keep p-issing me off on youtube hahaha. Let’s not slack with the technology because we happen to be fighting cavemen today.
Sounds as useful as the atomic hand grenade that would kill everything in a 100 yard radius but could only be thrown a maximum of 50 yards.
One of the design problem I’ve noticed so far is that it supposed to be a shoulder fired weapon. Well, take a look at the soldier holding the weapon. You may need to call the medics now for torn ligaments in their shoulder. Problem #2 is that a infra red laser rangefinder can be spoted with various night vision equipment which would give up your position in no time.
There is a consistency to the comments; keep it simple, it should be combined with the standard assault rifle, we need to be able to put more rounds down range. Let’s hope someone is listening to the men who will use the weapon.
I think that the lasar developement is fine provided it can be overridden by the operator as necessary…I am not so sure that the 25mm penetration is the needed direction for the weapons future assignments…Just as I am old school in automotive applications (all things equal, you can’t beat cubic inches) why not increase the rounds explosiveness and payload and put it in the working 40mm round?
i agree with the grunt who said the m-16-a1 with the m209
granade launcher is more practical then a 4 shot smart ammo//looks like someone is making money as useual..also the l.a.w. has the same capeabilty
Hey Joe P.
War never solved anything except Nazism, Fascism, Communism, and Islamic radicalism.
You all crack me up. Not one of you have fired or even seen this weapon in action and you act like you’re experts on it. Remember the M16 when it was first developed and how everyone said it was junk and would not be effective, and look at it now with all the variants. This weapon is a leap ahead in technology. If we continued to keep using our old systems just because we are comfortable with them, will jeapordize our soldiers and this country in the future when we actually fight a well organized and trained military. This is done to keep America on top, keep us safe. If we don’t develop these weapons our future enemies will have a terrible advantage over us (because they are developing these weapons). So have some faith, it might not look great in the beginning, but it will become the backbone of many new developments and variants in the near futre, just wait and see.
Woke-up dreaming about a similar weapon and then found this in my mail,yeah, in that order. It didn’t have laser sights but used two, left and right sights to find range and it exploded a burning epoxy,had vents on the barrel to adjust distance. very simple.
25mm is the minimum size to get the range and payload with the sensors/ electronics. Any smaller means more time, risk, and R&D. Perfect is the enemy of good.
I’m hoping they’ll continue work on the recoil and ergonomics. Note the model is not wearing IBA.
Getting a 40mm out to 600m with a shoulder-fired weapon is more fun than I want to sign up for.
More than 4 rounds of 25mm is a lot of weight on the gun.
Ideally there will be some flechette, WP, and golf ball buckshot for the close fight.
Gun is in production and on the way to Afghan. So, FUE is the real-world test.
Interested folks can also look at deathwind.com as another idea. Some folks are looking at 20mm rifles for long range material targets. This is very painful shooting.
If you want to field a serious gee whiz weapon, why not spend that money on a shoulder fired variant already manufactured? The shoulder fired launcher in the Metal Storm family of weapons for example? Or as has been noted, stick with the well proven 40mm. Use the money saved to pay troops. Buy better gear and more ammo.
This weapon has been designed with DIRECT input from the infantry man. The lethality of its 25mm round has been proven time and again. If it explodes 2 ft over a Talib’s nuggin, he’s not going to get pissed off, he’s going to get dead along with the buddy next to him. The 4 round magazine is a compromise between weight and mobility. Again since you have an accurate rangefinder and smartrounds, your accuracy goes through the roof, and your need for a 100-round mag goes flying out the window…
As for the person bemoaning the lack of an M-16 airgun attached to this grenade rifle, this is meant to be a squad weapon, meaning the rest of your mates will be putting rounds downrange from their M4s and SAWs while you sit back and lob deadly/accurate grenade fire for ultimate fire supremacy.
Let’s face it, this is the first promising infantry weapon to come along in decades.
This article only mentions an indirect fire mode creating a miniature airburst. Is there a direct fire option that would be effective in opening windows and creating blast effect in enclosed areas? We really need that.
I remember the time I humped 120 rds of HE for my thumper,used every darn one of them, sometimes you can`t have enough ammo
I served as a Grenadier for awhile in Nam with a M-79 on an Air Assualt. I carried 100 + rounds for the mission. So maybe I could have carried twice the number of rounds, but how quickly can you change from HE to WP or Flare or Cannister. Nice to fire 4 rounds w/o reloading, but….
i think money would be better spent on a smart 40 MM…a M-79 …the round doesnt need to go 600 meters…300 would be fine…IMHO
As a Vietnam veteran, Ive used both the M-79 & the M72 LAW. Seems that modifying the 40MM for the M79 to become a smart round, might add a little more punch when needed if your 25MM wasn’t effectively doing the job.
We’ll see!
As a M.P., I carried an M-79 grenade launcher and a 45 cal pistol in Vietnam. The M-79 was a single shot weapon and I had both grenades and double-ot buck rounds that I carried. The M-79 had an adjustable sight so I had to guess at the distance, wind speed and elevation. What a differance a generation or two makes!!!
As someone already commented, this is to be a squad support weapon. I have been keeping track of this program for years, this was supposed to have been part of the failed XM29 OICW system combining a rifle with a 20mm launcher. way to heavy, and the rifle component kept melting under sustained fire… but the 20mm portion worked, and worked even better with an increase to 25mm. maximum point target range may be 600m, but area target range is 1000m by some reports. It boggles my mind, the number of people that make negative comments about a weapon system they know only from a very limited article. and compare it with a m203 that has a hard time hitting a truck past 100m (unless the gunner is damn good). add in a 4x Thermal sight for night use, a max range of double that of a m203 and you have a weapon that should be a great asset.
How well designed is this weapon when 90% of the butt stock appears to be setting above the firer’s shoulder pocket?
Hmmm seems like a great weapon.
Should be able to have extra rounds nearby.
Also, I agree to much money spent on war. Peacemaker you are ok.
Most of these fat asses on here are to slow in the head to ‘get’ the over all picture. We spend more than the rest of the world combined on weapons of death.
Time to spend my tax dollars on something I want like books, schools and computers for kids. Who in their right mind would attack us with a modern army these days? We got more toys then everyone else.
These guys are just cheerleaders for some rich scum bag that uses them for propaganda to make himself more richer with our tax dollars.
Funny you never see a rich person’s kid fighting in Iraq or Afganistan do you?
From what I read the 25mm round is not completely replacing the 40mm round. I believe the 25mm round gives you greater penetration ability over the 40mm. It’s designed to shoot over and through objects and explode. Besides, if the can package this into a 25mm round, a 40mm version would be a piece of cake.
I did a test of the OICW and we all had the same comment make it a stand alone 20mm the balance on the oicw was good and the ability to hit a target behind a wall is a good thing but to make it 25mm i think the 20 mm is the way to go more rounds and should be some what lighter the sight we had was good and easy to use as for all the haters out there who want to just sit back and hug out our fights with the world if you think that will work I think you should go to RAMADI Iraq and take a walk down rt no-name and see how long you last we need things like this and as some one who speaks from experience it would have had a place in our PLT any day
Enter the US Marine Corps’ Mk-32 six-shot semi-auto 40mm grenade launcher.
The damn Jarheads did it again. Man the Army is retarded sometimes.
Having used the 4 barrel LAW, and number 1 in my battalion in using the M-79,and using the M-79 in combat, I would improve in the M-79 weapon, more deadly and killing blast. It speems who ever is pushing this weapon has no field experience in combat, having said that who’s the expert?
Whoever made the comment about combatants using walls, ditches, etc for eons was off the mark; any weapon capable of negating the security of cover instantly begins to degrade morale – documented fact. If the claims made about this weapon are supportable then I’m all for it – so far. We’ll see it it does in combat.
This weapon could be combined with Metal Storms rounds and really be simplified and less expensive. Metal Storms rounds stack and can allow an infantryman to fire three rounds as fast as a trigger pull reloads are stacks of three and combined with the smart rounds this is a decisive infantrymans weapon…
For those concerned about the explosive ability of the 40mm vs. 25mm, don’t worry! I studied under the guy that helped develop both systems, and the 25mm definitely had more explosive in the warhead.
The forty mike mike, only has a small ball of explosive in the middle of the warhead, about the diameter of a nickle, or barely larger. The 25mm is about the same diameter with a longer warhead explosive compartment.
The 25 mike mike’s fuse compartment is VERY small, and doesn’t have to be very large to be effective.
The forty is almost all spinning fuse counter weight and windshield actually, with some rotating band to take up even more room.
It was once believed that a large diameter made the high-low pressure launcher easier to design. But since then their have been great improvements in both chemistry and physics for these problems.
Has the Army even TRIED to test the USMS MK-32 .40mm grenade launcher ?
If its too sophisticated and hard to maintain in a combat field environment, the Marines
won’t buy it.
If you can come up with a .40mm round with a secondary air burst canister that can disable or take out bad guys behind a wall or a mountain slope of hard boulders, THERE is your solution !
Has the Army even TRIED to test the USMS MK-32 .40mm grenade launcher ?
If its too sophisticated and hard to maintain in a combat field environment, the Marines
won’t buy it.
If you can come up with a .40mm round with a secondary air burst canister that can disable or take out bad guys behind a wall or a mountain slope of hard boulders, THERE is your solution !
Sounds like a good weapon if it has potential to kill the enemy protected behind walls,trenches, etc…
I’m for any weapon that will help our forces remain safe if it proves itself. This is probably has a good cost/benefit and is much cheaper than a lot of other hi-tech weapons that are based on ships and airplanes.
Richard & Peacemaker, I have a Son in the Marines and believe more money should be spent on keeping our military safe. Much better spending it there than increasing our spending to support an earmark project that makes a Congressmen’s friend or contributator rich. Certainly better than spending more on welfare that rewards someone not to work.
@Will Hinkley,
I’ve seen this thing in action on the Military Channel; yes it can penetrate a window, wall, etc. and explode inside.
The GUI in the scope makes this easy to select, in fact I think the trigger finger can reach most of the controls.
More than likely a 40mm is not going to penetrate a wall without the dual purpose round, but this 25mm cad reach out and touch someone!
I saw it penetrate rock and concrete walls! The fuse delay is set by the operator.
Please allow this former humvee gunner to put in his two cents. When I saw the weapon, I got excited at the prospects. And many of you have some outstanding views laden with experience. But the comment that made me smile the most was galloglas’ “K.I.S.S.” If this weapon works as well as advertised in foul weather, is accurate to 600m, and increases kills of enemy behind cover by 300% reliably? One would almost rather put a belt on it and replace the MK-19. But 4 round mag? Lots of electronics? Unkown time to rangefind and feed info into rounds? Yeah, yeah, it sounds suspiciously like a limited-use specialist weapon. But seriously, guys, who amongst you didn’t get excited thinking about which direction this weapon is trying to go? I hope this weapon kicks butt, and I hope the research continues; but the 4 round mag and all the electronic bells and whistles concern me. Just too many unkowns right now to make the call.
Let’s see what we have. Weapons that shoot around corners. In Viet Nam we had spray and pray. We have smart rounds that enter rooms and explode. In Viet Nam we had the M-79 but very little to shoot it at except foliage. When you did have a target and until the Grenadier expended his shells there was nothing and there still is nothing to touch the reach and killing ring that the M-79 provides.
Someone said M-79 and K.I.S.S.
I say “No sh-t!! Give me an M-79 right now.
Sounds as if a fraction of that money should be to used to upgrade the 3.5inch “bazooka”. It is fin stabilized already with a powerful punch. All it needs is the “smart chip” and a lazer sight. As for rounds in a magazine: the first is by far the most essential if it packs enough frags & HE.
I had a unique opportunity to fire this weapon some time ago.
I can appreciate those of the opinion that we are getting too complicated, and those who blindly praise this as an innovation that will save lives.
Any prototype that begins its fielding process is always going to have problems.
I believe that this is a great tool that has its place. It will likely never replace the common carbine weapons we use now.
I can’t begin to assume that there is a better way or a worse way to use a tool. But to say that denying access to a tool is a better choice is ridiculous. Each weapon we have excels at certain tasks. I for one cannot wait to fire the end result and see the difference between the finished product and the prototype.
we can talk about it all we want, but the only way to know is trial by combat
What ever happened to:
“Keep IT Simple Stupid!”
“More Bells and Whistles”
The Russian “AK-47″ and the
“RPG” are Low Tech but very cost effective and simple and the user learning curve fast!
Nuff said*
CHIEF
Sounds like a weapon ‘system’ bought and paid for – just because. Just because the Army has more damn money than it knows what do with.
I would hate to be the guy in the squad that has to lug that weapon. It seems very high tech, but not having a good direct fire weapon would make me feel like an easy target.
dont care what it costs if it works. I used a m203. put this thing on a rifle and try it- no time for arm chair qbs!
FOUR BARRELED LAW??? try a m-203 flame device there “combat vet”
I think the media will eat this new weapon alive. I mean it might work for open terrain but urban ? ? ? thats alot of dead civis that a (liberal)camera man is just waiting to get footage of.
I’ve been following this system for almost 10 years, far before 9-11.
It works and has been baked and baked and baked for years.
This is one system worth buying.
Why not spend 25 million on revising ROE instead of more weapons??? How about keeping ROE at NCO level vs the POTUS
I have to say that I agree with the need for new weapons that will provide an edge in combat. The only down side is that some bookworm is getting rich off of our tax dollars. I fought in this war, keep your hairdryer that costs $34 million. give me a M249 and real body armor instead of those plates. These weapon developers make the weapons and never ask real JOES what they think. I mean real soldiers, 20 year old Joe Snuffy. Not Captain Butter Bar who never did any enlisted work and got his start as a officer because he went to college.
We had a 40 mike sleve that inserted into the 4.2lin mortar tube that put a round into the open hatch of a BRDM at out to 2 klicks, HE Q, HE Delay Plus Willie Pete. At the time we had plenty of the shit and couldn;t fire the
stuf down range fast enough Plus the tube itself could be handled like a japaneese knee mortar Peper the bastards with a little annyoyimg 40mm then drop a coupple of 4-2 in, 107 mm rounds and that would clean their clocks. MSG Listermann Inf, (retired)
As others have stated this has been in the works for years, started with the OICW and then as a stand alone system, I would like to know why another 34mil for further development is needed they have to have put a few 100mil maybe more into this over the last 10yrs. That aside the concept is good and this weapon will be a valuable asset to the Infantry squad, lase what ever the target is behind and the Ballistic Computer sets the round to go off on the other side showering the area behind the wall with frag, if you want to fire into a building you lase the wall, aim at a window and the round will go off in the building. I still think the trooper who carries it will also be need to carry a M4, because he will not always be 200-600m from the bad guys, anyone that has participated in the current fight knows just how up close the figth can/does get.
A good support weapon for the infantry for sure as long as you can keep all the bells and whistles working.
Oh, and for you Marines out there, the MK-32 does not have the capabilities that this weapon will if it works as advertised, range or accuracy.
The article does not mention how much the weapon weighs. For me, as a former ‘Nam Marine, this is a critical factor. Thank heaven, in the ‘Nam, we had WWII Marine back packs, about the size of two six packs of beer, thus limiting somewhat the amount they could force us to “hump”, to around 60 lbs. Today’s ruck sacks are three times the size of our packs, and soldiers and Marines now carry up to 100lbs of high tech gear, which is insane.
What ever keeps the grunts the safest fireing position, I am for. Smart weapoms, smart bullets and smart Sergents. I saw one soldier in vietnam fire an M79 and hit a treetrunk at 400 meters by firing a high shot. He was an avid golfer. It was a chip shot for him. Have you investigated those firing solutions in a smart way?
I will take one if it works. The theory of the system has been around, and went through rigorous testing. 4 round mags, I would hope for at least 6-8 rounds, but that is just me. Give me a 9mm, as a side arm for close range. I have a squad, and I have absolute faith and confidence in their abilities as an 11B to cover me while I engage with XM25. Rich Kids don’t fight because mommy and daddy buy them everything they want. They don’t have a concept of what true luxury is. As for “your tax money”, if you are wishing to shorten our R&D budget because you think we are good enough, remember, the enemy has a vote to. Just because we quite developing, doesn’t mean they will to. I would rather my Tax Dollars be spent on helping Joe out. Joe helps this army stay strong, run, work, keep moving forward. Joe comes into the military to better him/herself and their country. Our Tax Dollars go to people all around the world, that will not attempt to help them selves, at all. To quote a comment:”The research and development dollars could be better spent in peacetime activities. That is taking care of our own at home and helping the world rather than killing them.” Why take care of a world as you put it, when most will not support you, and won’t help itself out. As for weapons, weapons bring peace and stability, weather you admit it or not.
Out Here
fron the patch on the shoulder of the soldier firing the weapon, i assume he is an ordance man, give it to the grunt in the field, see what he says.
Hey, Joe Peacemaker, go sip your tea with your liberal pacifist buddies and leave the fighting and your safety & security to real men and women.
This seems like a solution looking for a problem. Do we really need this thing? Does it really solve any problem we’re struggling with? It would seem we’d be better served developing a better round for the M-16/M-4 family of weapons instead of developing a new weapon that certainly doesn’t appear to be “soldier proof.” What ever happened to the 6.8 SPC development? That made more sense but it was dropped.
WE used the 40mm single shot in Nam and it was quite effective and SIMPLE. I see too many moving parts, too much technology and fragile appearance to want to trust this thing.
Give me 34 million and I will give you a weapon that the troops would like and respect.
Guys all the technology in the world wont change the fact that any weapons system is only as good as the guy using it. Give this wonder gun to the Army SF guys overseas and let them field test it. (They tend to not have as many rules of engagement to follow as other units) See what they say about it. My concern it the weight and lack of immediate ammo available in the weapon. If any of you have rucked up with your gear for an extended op, no one wants to carry a butt load of weight for a system that seems limited in its ability to support an op. I loved my M79 and the MK19 on my up-armor. Oh course the Army will always spend money on things it thinks are great on paper but lousy in the field.
Mr Peacemake wake up and Thank every other comment poster for the freedoms you have thru superior firepower and their sweat, blood and guts.
Well having used both the M79 and M203 one problem was a ant personel round. Alot of folks improvised, Modfied behive round from a corba, painowire and led sinkers crimp type. As stated before troops where not in the development of eather. Was taught to put ducktape on the sling of the M79 to use it as a 40mm mortor, at best you could SWAG it to get longer range. I do hold Expert bages in Genards . I also have used the M202A1 Flash and the Law, all of them worked so much better firing like a old knee motor. Why not look that up a old 30mm mortor was light and used by both sides durring WWII, very effectllly by the Japs.
This sounds nice. The only thing is that this could be used against us as some creeps will beable to get hold of these and sell them. Or our loving goverment will give them away.
The over-under grenade launcher is a cheap, plasticky POS, I don’t see why anyone would defend it or recommend it as an IDF weapon especially. Give me a semi-auto, flat-trajectory, adjustable range exploding round weapons any day. Hiding in a hole and blind firing rounds into an open field is not good tactics, no matter what they told you to do in Vietnam. The Soldiers and Marines today are the best trained, seasoned and equipped in the world, and area an all-volunteer force. They would love it if some Taliban guy was hiding in a hole blind firing grenade rounds into a field. Now why the Army is spending money on a computer-controlled round instead of getting rid of 5.56 for 7.62 is beyond me.
I believe this is a poor choice based on complexity, and cost. A better choice would be the under slung launcher built by Metal Storm. The Army could provide a larger number per platoon, and still save money.
Too much electronics will not make our army victorious..and having a weapon that fully electronized is scary.. there are too many elemnts out there that could affect its mission. I prefer a simple, accurate, easy to maintain armory..
This weapon system is not replacing the M320 (newest version of M203) or the M32. People need to do their research before commenting.
This weapon is supplemental to the infantry squad with a specific purpose. Key word being “defilade” engagement.
How does this weapon differ from the AA12 which seems not to have any problems. The video’s that I have seen look awesome.
Post after post by idiots calling the Army retarded. This is not a close quarter weapon!! Some of you may have been deployed, but based on your post you have very little experience on the modern battle field….this is not Vietnam and these aren’t NVA or Vietcong.
I agree with the M-16/M203 combo, it was by far my favorite to use.
This weapon was originally part of the OICW combat system that incorporated a 5.56mm rifle that went on to become the XM-8. If anything this is the Army getting something out of the disaster that was the OICW. The XM-8 was great by the way, just wish they would put it in the USMC’s hands
As for KISS vs Smart rounds, I would rather have both. For most applications a dummy round is fine. I don’t need to anti-defilade a light truck bearing down on me. However if I am dealing with a room full of guys firing from a window, I want to have the ability to target, firing through, and air-burst inside the room. Another feature they don’t talk about is being able to explode on the far side of cover. So if your dealing with someone firing at you from the far side of a building using firing holes you can notch in the distance and fire straight through the wall.
It sounds to me like the military is trying very hard to utilize new high technology to transport the old technology, which worked just fine without all the bells and whistles. They to teach the soldiers how to be creative and use their brains, instead of fancy battery powered equipment. The brain is the most dangerous weapon on the planet after all.
The old “PANZERFAUST” was devastating on Soviet armor as well as entrenched positions due to the shaped charge. This is why the RPG is so damn effective. Simple, robust only needing either a brave man to operate. Would think that a belt-fed low tech version capable of firing this round should be put out with limited electronics other than a night scope…. If the round is so damn effective let’s put it in a low tech platform first.
“War sells alot of dog food and toys by Matell,” quote from Nam.
Wow! I loved the M203 for its ability to utilize HE, OO Buck, illum, gas, and (hand loaded) flechette rounds. OP specific loadout with enhanced HE, air burst capability and at greater range would be sweet. I have my doubts about the lethality of this smart round. Beauty is one shot, on target with a kill(s) as an end result. Lets get back to the drawing boards!!
If this thing is so great, give it some real life testing. We have some high speed units out there in the badlands that could give it a good work out. Have a the manufacture engineer out there with the unit to help get a first had look at the good and the bad.
Amazing!!! Who is Joe Peacemaker??? I have used all the old systems going back to VietNam. This may be the future but if it is too light it will be ineffective if the load is to small. With the new explosives they are able to make smaller rounds, but the operator will have to carry an additional weapon for close self protection or have a second soldier cover his @#$. The M16 with the launcher worked well for years. Maybe a new round for that will help till they get this system worked out. Joe Peacemaker; the money spent on developement keeps lots of people employed and the industry going. If we continue to shut down the arms industry we will be in the same position as we were in WWII when it took years to get up to speed to support our troops in the field with up to date weapons. A lot of people died because the peacenics forced the government to move money away from the arms industries. When will we learn from the past??? Oh by the way the Russians and Chinese still put a majority of their spending into their arms industry???
Amazing!!! Who is Joe Peacemaker??? I have used all the old systems going back to VietNam. This may be the future but if it is too light it will be ineffective if the load is to small. With the new explosives they are able to make smaller rounds, but the operator will have to carry an additional weapon for close self protection or have a second soldier cover his @#$. The M16 with the launcher worked well for years. Maybe a new round for that will help till they get this system worked out. Joe Peacemaker; the money spent on developement keeps lots of people employed and the industry going. If we continue to shut down the arms industry we will be in the same position as we were in WWII when it took years to get up to speed to support our troops in the field with up to date weapons. A lot of people died because the peacenics forced the government to move money away from the arms industries. When will we learn from the past??? Oh by the way the Russians and Chinese still put a majority of their spending into their arms industry???
i have worked with the m79 and m203 seen the demo and have done my homework on m29 and m32 xm25 looks like a good system but how does it work without its power supply cost is a factor
first, there already is air bursting 40mm rounds for counter defilade. they work well in the new 40 mic six pack.
second, the soldier firing the weapon in the picture is firing it off the shoulder because he has body armor on.
third, the USMC didnt develop the mk32 if thats what its called, the six pack was developed by a private firm.
Let’s give it a try and see what it can do. It had to do something good during demonstration that impressed the powers to be. The semi-auto pistols and the M-16 received extended magazines, maybe this weapon can get some upgrades also.
(Look to the future)I carried a junk M16 65-66. when you set up at night the very 1st thing you did was to get your cleaning rod ready. This buck rodgers gimzo like the the old law is a worthless piece of crap
25 mm round with bio-material. More distance and psychologically threatening. Have one of these puppies drop in the middle of gomers digging a hole for IED and see how fast and how far they can run when it starts smoking and smelling.
I agree with a couple of the comments the Army should NOT be paying the developing costs, the company developing the weapon should. You need to keep in mind that once the Army accepts the weapon the other branches will buy it as well as some of the Federal Agencies. Then you have the forces of many other countries, so the cost per weapon will be very low.
I humped the M-79 in the Nam, and all I got to say is nothing but good about it. After blowing a dud 750 lb? bomb sticking in the ground, we ran back to the APC we were on and I threw my 79 up to my bud, who dropped it on the floor. I heard it go off ( busted trigger guard) but nothing happenrd. My homey stuck his head out the hatch and asked me if this was mine? It was the crumpled HE round that was chambered. seems it had a saftey device that it had to make 3 rotations after leaving the barrel. It didn’t or I would have killed everybody inside. Talk about guilt? I would be in the looney toon ward the rest of my life. Like the man before said…KISS. I loved that weapon, although I took my 16 when we went into the jungle. More bullets.
AIRBORNE!!!!!!!
Oh yea…the 79 also fired an assortment of ordinance. HE’s, shotgun rounds, tear gas, flares, willy peter and a couple more rounds I think, I can’t remember after almost 40 years. Anybody else remember?
“I hate this piece of sh…t” comes to mind from the guy who was the mule packing the M-60′s 10 or 15 # untill it saved the squad’s a..s. a blow dart is lighter but…
Well, this is another area target weapon. That is a benefit, however, according to the geneva convention we can’t even fire the Mk-19 directly at enemy personnel, only vehicles. So, what are the limitations with this weapon? I know it is more comparable to the M-203 than the mk-19, but I suspect we are still not allowed to fire it directly at the enemy. It sounds pretty good and you would probably only need one per platoon since most movements are mounted now, and you have the mk-19 and .50 cal.
Dude this weapon looks like some big gun from a Sci-Fy movie.LOL. Any ways lets see what happens.
If it was up to some of you outdated irrelevant retired Armchair quarterbacks (I retired as well), we would still be use a Blunderbuss. Look, the young men and women who are now fighting just as bravely as you did (though you are probably unwilling to give them their props -your cause were always more deadly or nobeler)knows, understands, and can conceptualize technologically advanced ideas along with complementary weaponry probably better than we could -it is part and parcel of their make up. They live and breath technology. So, if this weapon works to that advantage, even if it just confidence through comfort, then so be it. In the end, it is confidence, audacity, will, and those intangibles that are going to triumph over all else. I will wager that as much as we learned in Vietnam, Korea, etc, just as much, if not more, is irrelevant in this fight. So, make sure you next posted comment is something supportive to our troop and the tools to which they little choice of use.
does it come in MARINE CORPS green?
all thats needed we will make it work
There are a lot of detractors to this new tech.
Even if this is only a “beta” of the soon-to-be-released technology, it gives us the ability to confidently kill a baddie when he’s ducked down in a trench, or behind a boulder. Any removal of potential error is good. Bravo to the development team.
It kind of sounds like a good idea to me, but then, I was used to the old M-203 grenade launcher. If this particular gun is a step up from that, I am all for it.
I’d just give it to the enemy and let THEM destroy themselves with it…
Semper Fi
Again I find myself baffled by peoples ignorance. Were it not for the need to protect what is dear to us from those that would conquer us weapons would not have advanced farther than simple hunting weapons (spears and arrows). Additionally, if it were not for military budget spending we would not have such things as the Mircowave Oven, The Internet or Advanced Aircraft. Point being that military spending can be a good thing.
If we close ourselves off to the possibilities of new technology we needlessly waste precious lives and resources by doing things the old, hard way.
Besides, I imagine that this weapon is being developed in AMERICA by AMERICAN COMPANIES for AMERICAN TROOPS.
Regardless of the feasibility of this weapon the money will stay in the American economy (if it IS produced by an American company) and other advancements will come of it. Just like how modern aircraft now incorporate advanced composites like Carbon Fiber for strength and efficiency due to another “Money Pit”, The Commanche Project. Not all advancements are obvious.
Richard, you crack me up. The US DOESN’T spend “more than the rest of the world put together” on military stuff. We spend far less, as a % of GNP, than most of our opponents.
And if you want to make the world a better place, donate some of your OWN money for (more) books and computers (and on a Grammar course for yourself, while you’re at it), while the rest of us “fat asses” work to defend a country that lets naysayers sit on the sidelines calling names. There was nothing in your vitriol that advanced the discussion one millimeter.
By your standards I might be “rich” from my 60-hour-a-week job, yet I have a son flying an F/A-18C and another graduating USNA as Marine infantry, neither of which are “safe” jobs. Newsflash: It’s a VOLUNTEER military these days!
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Dusty in Chattanooga
Sounds like a good concept
But could you not add the electronics to the 203 ? And use the much more powerful 40mm round? I don,t know tomuch about penetration.There are other weapons that will do that.Seems ability to explode
past a corner or over head most important.
I also carried an m79 and 45. Didnt take but a few rounds to learn how to master that baby. One of my favorite tools in Vietnam. Buckshot round wasnt worth loading but the HE was devastating.
All the weapons we have don’t seem to be working so well. The Afghans are still kicking our asses and they don’t have anything like what we have.
It is amazing how ignorant that most of you are. You probably do not even know who developed this weapon… I have fired the weapon and have seen what it can do to the enemy. Put 5 rag heads behind a rock wall and one round from the XM25 shot from 500 yards and all 5 are shredded pig food…. get over it you morons!!! Or formally join the club…Morons “R” Us
WILL SOMEONE PLEASE AGREE WITH ME that this webpage is a military based webpage that is used to provide soldiers with information on all different subjects and there should be no annoying peace talking civilians on here blabbering their mouth about a weapon that they know nothing about. please stop leaving comments like “we should be spending our money on peace talks”. well guess what “peacetalker” its not as easy as you think it is to just “talk peace” with a country where more than 50% of the population wants to kill you just for talking peace. Afghanistan wants us out, but we need to be there, and soldiers will keep dying every day. SO IF YOU ARE TRULY AN AMERICAN AND CARE ABOUT SOLDIERS STOP LEAVING COMMENTS THAT SAY “FORGET NEW WEAPONS LETS SPEND IT ON SOMETHING ELSE” BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE THE ONES ON THE BATTLEFIELD DYING FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND YOU ARE TELLING EVERY SOLDIER ON THIS WEBPAGE THAT YOU TRULY DON’T CARE. YOU CAN HAVE THE RIGHT TO LEAVE COMMENTS ON THIS PAGE WHEN YOU ACTUALLY HAVE HAD TO WATCH YOUR FRIENDS DYING IN FRONT OF YOU. IF YOU HAVENT BEEN IN A COMBAT SITUATION THEN GET OFF THIS WEBPAGE IF YOU ARE GOING TO LEAVE COMMENTS BASHING THE MILITARY FOR TRYING TO HELP SOLDIERS AND SAVE THEIR LIVES.
I saw one of these at the AUSA convention in 1999, 11 years ago? My buddy & I picked it up…thing is HEAVY, then we asked what each round weighs, then how much is a basic load? so that equals about a hundred pounds between the Ammo, the Gun and the 5.56 ammo hmmmm…the guy trying to sell it asked us to move on – these were not polite questions to ask a contractor!
I don’t know much about this weapon except what I have heard. I do have a couple of questions if anyone out there has the answer, I would appreciate it. First of all, how easy is it to field strip for maintenance? How well can it handle mud, sand, dust, etc.? How many rounds can it fire before getting too hot to fire, or does it even get too hot? Is it proned to misfiring? I assume that it fires like a combat rifle, if so, is it gas operated or blow back? How accurate is it really? Can it get wet?
I have a good feeling that it would fail most of my questions, although I do not know for sure. All I know that when I was in the Marines (Lebanon & Grenada) if we had a problem, we just called in an artillery or air strike.
The idea is good. The size is too small. We are not there to just flex our muscles. 40 mils is just fine. It means bussiness!
Do it 40 mls.
After reading half of the comments I must remind both active and non. Every single person active deserves any up grades. I became active in the 70′s when it was thought the m-16 had all the bugs worked out in the a-2 model. And we didnt have the luxury of the m-4 and the sighting systems of today. The m-203 (over and under as some put it) had a specific job to cover areas that we could not get with direct fire or suspected to be occupied. That was if your unit had the cheap plastic snap on quadrent sights. Direct fire options were null. This new system could be the answer to direct fire situtiations that I personally delt with by useing the LAW system/not error free but effective as hell. Our boys know what they are doing ! Field it and we will find way to field improve it..like the M-16..203..60.ect. We are the strongest nation on earth and a little tech. from time to time wont hurt. Cost ? what is the cost of just 1 of our boys/girls ? I know first hand what RPG-9 will do, any thing that will out range that is getting a big OK. Please dont lose sight of what a system is for. Support our service and its warriors and all those behind the effort. sgt.Mark Murphy 1/16 Iron rangers (ret.)sniper,French Commando
Ok, It was posted that the weapon has aready hurt and almost killed the users. I saw a 12ga shotgun on the internet that will fire gernades, double 00, and other varius rounds’ also atomatic, with less kick that an M16. Plus the developer has already paid out of pocket perfecting it. Maybe the gov “good ole boys” should look into this…or is this new weapon giving “a bonus?’
How many of you are veri-chipped?Or are you also of the hybrids that are being created as we speak. The old term was called nephiums.Do you have the new smart-chip implanted in you yet? Thank goodness I HAVE A way to block the radio frequenzy,and ceate a different chip that disrupts yours.
My favorite grenade launcher was nothing more than a slingshot on steroids the ARVN troop used in the Delta.