I just ran across an Air Force article that mentioned a series of "town hall" style meetings with senior NCOs, officers and flight line Airmen to discuss issues surrounding the Air Force's series of uniforms.
"Air Force leaders want to know the uniform needs of our Airmen," said Maj. Eric Habersberger, AFUO deputy chief. "This is the best way to find out. We go out to our Airmen performing the mission to learn about their needs and what we can do to help."
The AFUO conducted seven different sessions. At Hill AFB, four sessions were conducted with enlisted and three with officers. And, seven at Maxwell-Gunter, five with enlisted and two with officers. Each uniform item was discussed, from the Airmen Battle Uniform to the service dress, with several Airmen bringing in uniform items to better illustrate their concerns.
Predicably, the Air Force story says the meetings were "a huge success" without providing any evidence.
But I bet I know one gripe brought up at these town halls: whose idea was it to throw Airmen — especially ones working in ground-pounder units at JTACs and TAC-Ps — in tiger striped camo patterned in the same colors as the manifestly unpopular UCP?
It's interesting that the Air Force jumped on the "universal" camo pattern/color bandwagon right after the Army did and probably based some of its justification for doing so on the relative success of the UCP in Iraq (why that 'success' occurred is a matter of debate). But now it seems the Airmen on the ground aren't too keen on wearing their Airman Battle Uniform when the bullets are flying. Our TAC-P buddies in the picture up top would undoubtedly rather be garbed in something like the good Capt. Brooks below.
Now, I talked to a source who has NOTHING to do with the decisionmaking on the Army's uniform, but is well tapped into the issue from a Capitol Hill and culture standpoint and he thinks the service will cave and go all MultiCam. I have my doubts, but if that happened, how do you think the Air Force would feel if it had just spend all this time, money and effort to field a new uniform in the same colors as the UCP to have the service that developed it kick it to the curb.
I'd like to sit in on that uniform feedback meeting…
COMING UP: Chinese digicam and Army MultiCam issue gouge…
{ 51 comments… read them below or add one }
Big Air Force has no common sense, let alone tactical sense.
I agree with sithfac, the Air Force needs to work on discipline first before they can even start anywhere else. Their Airmen lack integrity, I have seen it all with them from illegal activities within, to being overseas and not carrying out their duties like they should. Even their officers lack discipline and INTEGRITY… The ARMY should come back and take over their ranks and get rid of Airmen period…
The Air Force lost its way when it threw away the green fatigues. I worked in an office like around 80% of airmen and a ABU/CBU uniform never hid me.
I suppose you are including CCT Teams as well?
Being a former Airman (six years active duty, E-5, C-130 propulsion specialist) and priding myself on the job I did, demonstrating my INTEGRITY and going beyond my duties to serve my country and my fellow Airmen, I take great offense at your GROSS generalization. You obviously lack a mature and seasoned mind. It's a good point that the Air Force Bureaucracy has mad great blunders, but that in no way indicates that all, or even most Airmen lack integrity. Shame on you for your ignorance. Shame on you.
That is f****ing bullshit. My brother is an Airmen and he performs all his duties and goes above and beyond. Admittedly there are some in his squadron that do not perform as well but for the most part the Air Force seems to be quite competent and expedient by expelling these poor performers. I am personally offended that anyone would talk about my brother and the airforce in such a way.
Someone sounds bitter! Why don't you grow up! It's the Army that has everything so FUBARed. I know quite a few soldiers in the Army that are convicted felons.
You're the kind of person that would punish all for what the few do. As an Airman I worked with some of the best, most honest, and good people I've ever known. How dare you.
Being a TACP myself spending a year over in Kunar, Afghanistan, I can honestly say that if your statement were true, and we didn't carry out our duties, there would be entire Army and Marine Battalions that never made it back to the states. every time that a bomb is dropped in Afghanistan during a firefight, its a U.S. TACP Airmen calling it in. Just from reading your statement, this shows how ignorant and truly dim a person can be. Do some reading and find out what a TACP, CCT, and PJ does, what kind of discipline it takes to join our ranks, and then at least when you make yourself out to be an idiot, you may stop yourself. That is of course if you can read.
No, not every bomb. Appreciate all you do but the Army has been calling in CAS for decades. Only recently has the Air Force tried to make this an Air Force specific skill. Keep doing what you are doing but don't drink the cool aid.
And the intial post is way out there.
wow rcc you have no idea what your talking about your ether a little kid in jrotc or your a marine you have no idea what the air force does…look up what pararescuemen are and how its the hardest cource in the military
While I agree with sithfac, decisions being made by the wrong people, someone who works in an office their entire career should not be telling flight line workers and the like what to wear. Yes, the AF did jump on the UCP bandwagon, in my opinion the entire process was flawed, they were going to force us into the UCP (tiger stripe) no matter what. I do agree that the AF should look at changing the uniform now, it will be cheaper now then ten years from now. Im not saying MultiCam is the best choice, but it is already developed, and therefore cheaper if produced in mass quantities. (at least cheaper then developing your own pattern like we did with the tiger stripe UCP). RCC, the AF was split from the ARMY for a reason, to focus more on the technical side of things first, and ground pounding and doing the dirty work (no offense intended, i respect you guys alot) a distant second.
RCC,
Do you have any proof to back up this claim of Airmen overseas not fulfilling their duties? Because from what I have seen they are going above and beyond their duties. Airmen are filling in more and more Army roles by the day.
The Air Force is filling every roll it is needed to fill. Without the USAF accomplishing its mission, which for some reason you think it is not, they would need to convoy every single piece of equipment into Afghanistan, making casualties skyrocket. The AF is pushing old aircraft way beyond their lifespan, yet you claim they are not carrying out their duties.
I have been with both the Army and the Air Force, and any problem with one I see in the other, just like any other branch. But go ahead, continue to talk about how the AF lacks integrity and discipline while supporting a branch that lets convicted felons and retards join its ranks.
I don’t think the USAF Uniform Board has made a right decision since McPeak was CSAF.
Rather than get involved with an interservice name-calling match, I would point out that camouflage uniforms are a TACTICAL need…not, as some Generals (and a few Admirals, for that matter)seem to believe, a FASHION STATEMENT. Put sailors back in dungarees, put airmen into whatever uniform is most appropriate to their duties, and leave Camouflage to those who truly NEED IT! Not everyone in the services is a trigger-puller…and, to quote an old saying, “They also serve…” BTW, I served 4 years in the US Navy…then did 3 years in the pre-BDU US Army. If the Generals and the Admirals have so much time on their hands, I’m sure we could find more work for them…or retire them…then they can go to work for the Camo mnaufacturers
The best camo pattern won’t help much with straps, slings and load-bearing gear made from high-contrast black materials. From a distance (in Iraq) good camo ACU or solid dust-color BDUs like contractors wear looks much the same, but you can see a black chinstrap or M-4 bobbing against the background clear as day. Easy solution: camo tape, spray paint and rolling everything cloth around in the dirt.
Holy Shit!
USAFONETWOTHREE!
nicely done
While I can’t speak to wether or not teh USAF fullfills it’s duties or not, I have seen through personal experience that alot of members of the USAF don’t think military rules apply to them. I worked in two US Navy Customs inpection units in Kuwait, and both times, our biggest pain in the rear was the Air Force. They tried to break nearly every rule they we laid out for them, and when we called them on it, everyone from the O-6′s on down whined and cried about how rudely they were being treated. I have personally seen Air Force E-4′s demand to have their own rooms at Ali-Al-Salem when other services E-9′s and Junior Officers were sharing rooms. As for the Unifrom issue, I believe it’s a case of the USAF still thinking they are part of the Army. They need to come up with something that distincts them from the other services, and actually camoflages them in the enviroment they are serving in at the time.
Careful, My home is in a Navy town.
Just came from the Rock and 9 times out of ten the ones that were giving you trouble were aircrew.
Well, USAF usually has their own rooms wherever they go so it’s expected. They have the budget for it. Also, as if Marines don’t try and break rules all the time, I’ve personally witnessed them going to extreme lengths to get alcohol to deployed locations. The AF is taking over more jobs from the Army such as driving and protecting convoys, as well as guarding FOBs. It needs uniforms to coincide with these jobs.
When its time to point fingers, be careful. I’ve seen SEALs perform less than one would expect of an elite unit. Every branch has its moments of less than perfect behavior. Its easy to pick on the AF, but one needs to keep in mind that it is not easy to keep a scratch handicap while there is a war going on. I for one am surprised that they were issued any field uniforms.
Seems to me that the AF Brass ignored several considerations from the company/contractor and troops when developing the “new” ABU. This is a link from the company, kind of like the history of the developement.
http://www.tigerstripeproducts.com/airforcetiger.htm
I served 30+ years in the Air Force. I was in avionics, Tactical Air Control, and Combat Control. I was enlisted for 10 1/2 years and an officer for 20 years. I will put the USAF airman and officer against any other service member. Ask the NAVY SEALS what they think about the Special Ops CCT and T-Ps who accompanied them on many missions. Ask the Rangers about the PJ and CCT who were in Somalia and who called airsupport and rescued wounded Rangers while they themselves were already wounded. Ask about the DSMs Silver Stars Bronze Stars earned by USAF personnel. Then quit complaining and putting down the Air Force. Yes we treat our personnel better than the other services and yes an e-4 in the AF can have his owr room if you think that is a problem try changing services. When it comes to intelligence courage and integrity USAF has nothing to be ashamed of.
I made 650 static line and HALO parachute jumps 125 combat traing dives, flew over 50 low level combat missions. I earned over 45 medals and decorations, I think I have earned the right to speak, I do not demean the other services but I will not stand for cowards like the individual who insulted the honor and intergity of the Air Force to go un-answered.
George N. Roll Ltc.(ret) USAF
Nicely put sir!
well done sir
While I agree the Air Force is suffering from a serious lack of discipline right now rcc’s comment made me laugh. The ARMY? You’re serious? Maybe want to look into your own ranks as well. I just came back from being stationed at an Army FOB and the behaviour was appaling. Some of the most unprofessional, borderline dangerous, and generally useless troops I’ve ever served with. We had issues with them assaulting the female airmen we deployed with as well as a host of other issues. I didn’t see that when I was serving with the Marines.
While this is just one person’s experience I have to believe the general state of the military is service-wide, not branch specific, and it stems from weak leadership at the top and political correctness from our elected officials.
PC has had a part in trying to destroy our services. Most of our services ARE suffering from PC used by the generals and admirals that started during the Vietnam War.
usafonetwothree:
For your information I served with the Airforce as an Airmen. Yes, at first hand I witnessed idiots making videos of themselves during post when they suppose be guarding the base. An Iraqi convoy got on base without having proper credentials to be on base and took Airmen to get the locate the convoy and escort them off base and if this convoy would have been the enemy it would have a catastrophic impact on the base. (Kirkuk AFB) The officer in charge couldn't even control the flight because he was too busy doing nothing and had his favorites running the show in which they were very incompetent and could not even handle an troop that lost his radio at which our communication became compromised. I busted a male captain with another female captain, male captain was married. Oh and JOSH, I'm a former MARINE, I'm ashame that I did 4 years in the AF but not ashame for serving my country…
And you think that same crap doesnt happen in the Army? I've been deployed on two army bases in Iraq and Afghanistan. Personnel are not allowed to wear PT gear to chow hall or BX…but Army guys do it all the time. During high threat periods when ALL military personnel are suppposed to be wearing IBA…you see soldiers walking around without it. One incident, a couple soldiers PLAYING with a rocket launcher in their CHU nearly killed themselves. Another one sucked down 6 cans of spray duster for fun. Luckily for him the USAF dished out major money and personnel to medi-flight him back to Turkey. And I don't even want to go into the number of sexual assaults that go on in theater that are almost exclusive to the army. You can look the statistics up if you don't believe me. OH…and here's another one…apparently the ARMY guards at one base I was at liked to play a game called "do you trust me". At least they did until one of them shot another in the leg…Their are dumbasses in every branch…it's clear that you served with a few…but you are so self-absorbed that you can't see the big picture….That's the real reason you only served 4 years in the AF.
Looking over that link at Tiger Stripe Products, it seems like the Air Force got exactly what it asked for and what most of its chair-bound personnel needed.
For those like the good LTC above that are in the bush, they should use MultiCam or another quality tactical camo as needed.
The real fallacy in the ACU and ABU was assuming that one camo pattern could be designed that would work in every environment. Ironically, the US is one of a very small number of countries that has tried this strategy. Most other nations have separate patterns for desert, woodland, snow, etc.
George N. Roll Ltc.
YOUR AIRFORCE LACKS INTEGRITY AND DISCIPLINE…… I EARNED MY MEDALS TOO SO I GUESS I HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY WHATEVER I FEEL LIKE SAYING.. AND NICE RESUME BY THE WAY BUT I DON’T BLAB AWAY ABOUT MY MINE!!!
About the uniform, make it pink with tiger stripes!
LtCol., I was stationed at Ft Eustus. Talk about integrity and discipline. In my years of service only officers won or bragged about their medals. You've seen the picture of the Army man wearing his pink undies? I was shocked! All services have their lack of integrity and discipline. Not just one of OUR brothers-at-arms. Or is OUR military become this disorganized.
rcc… I complemented the Marines (who have made videos of themselves “ghost riding” MRAP’s in a combat zone… VERY professional) so what is your problem? Like I said… this is not an Air Force specific issue. If you’re too blinded by branch rivalry to admit it then that is your problem. You’re using gross generalizations based on your own personal experience. For your story I can give you dozens of others in which Army and Marine personnel acted in the same, or worse, manner.
The air force has not been around long enough to be given any kind of respect. To have an E-4 demand anything is downright unheard of. You would never hear an army SPC/CPL demand anything. Nor would you hear a marine CPL demand his own room. Even a navy petty officer would know to bit his tongue. But not a chair force e-4…they are too pansy ass to share a room. Fat bastard desk jockeys!
Are we becomming as mean as our politicans? Being a GI Brat, I remember my share of Fat*******desk jockeys! Having been on an Army post in the last year I had my views of all of thoes slim(?) Army desk jockies. This type of writing is as ant-military as the words of other non-PC, anti-military writers. I'M ASHAMED!
I've never run across a SrA expect any special treatment, I've known SSgt's that had to bunk with Army PFC's due to a lack of room and didn't complain.
My bad, Josh, I thought you were insinuating I was ARMY. I just experienced so many unprofessional airmen in the Airforce and looking back through my Marine Corp career Honor, Courage and Commitment is instilled in you on day you step off the bus until you graduate bootcamp. Yes, we had our bad Marines but not as bad I experienced in the Airforce. I can’t speak about the ARMY because I have never worked with them but if I have knowledge of what goes on in the Airforce I’m not holding back, especially when troops were put in danger and nothing was ever done just because the leaders wanted to earn their Bronze Stars and put everything under the rug…
And about the uniform, still sticking to pink tiger stripes.
RCC:
I agree with what you have said regarding the Airmen. They are lacking discipline and integrity within their ranks. I am amazed that no one has really gotten hurt yet and I can concur with the information you posted on kirkuk. You tube has a video of AF officers acting in the same manner as the enlisted. Maybe instead of looking into uniforms they should be looking into the leaders especially in the Security Forces Career field.
I also agree with you on uniforms they should go with the pink stripes…
Like pink undies?
as far as all the nay saying about other branches, I am Army and I have seen things in the army that are messed up, and as far as air force we have had pilots, both in Afghanistan and Iraq that would not fly because it was to sunny out. Personally I think they didn’t want to fly so they could get a tan. but who knows just putting in my Two cents. oh and pink tiger stripe for sure, except for the ones that actually work in the field with the infantry and spec ops.
FROM THE EDITOR: Whoa guys…let’s try and stick on topic here. I don’t want this comment string to spiral into service rivalries and nasty back stabbing insults. We’re talking gear here, not who’s tougher than the next guy. So at the expense of a few extra page views, let’s keep the chest puffing to ourselves, ok?
Thanks…
If you noticed any of the footage from the CCT’s and TACP’s during the Haiti airport crisis, they have already adopted Multicam. Typically these groups wear whatever camo the unit they are attached to wears, so they don’t stick out like a sore thumb.
I conducted camouflage develoment, engineering and test & evaluation for the Army Camouflage Lab at Fort Belvoir, VA back in the 70′s and 80′s. I hold two patents from that work and cite it only to establish my credentials to make these comments. My lab conducted detection and identification tests on all the world armies camouflage uniforms which at the time were 50 plus in number and ran the entire combinatorial gamut of color, shape, size and patterns. All camo uniforms blend into a single monotonic color ranging from olive drab to earth tones and variations of shades in between. We did exhaustive factorial hypothesis testing and the results were unambiguous. At 300 yards/meters all camo uniforms eye integrate into a solid color with no statistically significant differences between any of them. When these results were reported out in technical reports to TRADOC the decision at the time was to use the USMC 1948 colors and patterns but to enlarge the patterns which did little to help the eye integration phenomena at 300 meters and beyond. It appears that we never learn from our mistakes and continue to seek a multi-spectral uniform,when it is meaningless to do so. No camo including the Gilly suit is effective within 300 meters except to stationary prone troops in heavy foilage cover.
These results were instrumental in funding being drastically reduced eventually resulting in the demise of the Army’s Camouflage, Concealment & Deception Lab at Fort Belvoir. Natick Labs assumed some of the textile work but the science and engineering as well as human psychology and perception has been irretrievably lost and is questionable whether it should be resurrected. MULTICAM is no more an answer than plain old solid olive drab/green. Camouflage uniforms and pattern-colors for vehicles are ineffective at stand off ranges beyond 300 meters and shape factors are the important concealment consideration beyond those ranges. Within 300 meters even Delta Force has to dig fox holes and throw natural foilage over themselves. But then the Sioux Indians did the same thing way back in the Wild west. Hooo argh. Rocky Shoals
let every Man/woman in the Air Force get one vote on a specified pay day. Give each ,man a list with pictures of or samples of the uniforms chosen.
Majority rules.
Otherwise go Olive Drab or Khaki in coyote brown.
The uniforms worn on a daily basis by Air Force personnel are generally fine for their intended purpose. With the whole military being digital the idea was to firstly integrate and secondly to appear part of the modern military. As for specific camo requirments, it doesn’t matter. 99% of Air Force personnel will not be in the bush, but will be in offices, and on bases. The 1% of people who do need specific camo for outside the wire activities are given the flexibility to wear what works best, the same as Navy Seals.
You would be surprised to find how small a part of the Air Force is Desk Bound. My estimate after 22 years enlisted and commissioned is about 30% – not SPs of truck drivers, flight line workers, medics, engineers, communication maintenance or operations, EOD or other munitions…. Only pilots are "front line combat" , but the rest of us do turn up on target lists. Second subject: camo only works to the extent that it breaks up outlines. Animal kingdom; zebras, leopards, tigers – pattern; lions foxes, antelopes – no pattern. Bright red or yellow would be bad, but almost any neutral color brown gray, green can work well if cover and concealment training is effective.
"only pilots are "front line combat""…..TACP'S, JTAC'S, CCT'S, PJ'S???
i loe you guys xxxx
To those of you who feel the need to complain about what other people are doing, shut your mouth and do your job. Unless it is a teammate jeopardizing the mission or other lives it doesn’t matter. If you feel like there is a real problem, confront the person/people making the problem directly. But to get on a website and insult an entire group of people when you have never seen how 99.99% of them operate is immature and shows how weak and insecure you really are. Pull your nuts out of your stomach and quite complaining about your own personal experiences. Everyones is different, some bad and some good. Don’t think that your 4 short years is really going to say that much.
We’re all Americans, we all serve our country, and for the majority, we work hard. If we didn’t have the AF, Marines, Army, and Navy we wouldn’t be the most powerful military that this world has seen.
Kevin out.
As a Marine I was issued with two types of camo uniforms.
Woodland or jungle, and desert. Seeing as we are a ground combat element this makes perfect since.
I’m now in the Air Guard in Memphis TN.
The air force how ever ….. well….
Less than 1% of it’s people actually fight on the ground. Pilots are given green or tan flight suits, FACs are given multicam as are PJs. So why in all **** would you issue the rest of the branch something that blends into NOTHING ! Does the new tiger stripe look cool ? Yes. Is it effective as an actual combat uniform ? **** NO ! I along with MANY MANY MANY other Airmen and NCOs and Officers would rather have multicam, or green tiger stripe or **** just plain OD green ! Something anything that works other than the crap we have now.