As a professional shooter it is important never to overestimate your skills and even more unforgivable to misrepresent your skill level to commanding officers who will probably take those perceptions into account during mission planning. This is especially true of snipers preparing to conduct specialized tasks like providing target interdiction from a helicopter based platform.
While I once had a SOTIC graduate tell me that Aerial Platform shooting is completely useless, I think it is a valid technique, but one that needs to be balanced with a solid dose of reality. Shooting from a moving, vibrating platform such as a helicopter is exceedingly difficult. While I don’t have any statistical evidence to offer, there is some readily available anecdotal evidence.
A while back The Military Channel did a special on the International Sniper Competition at Ft. Benning, Georgia which brought together some of the world’s most highly skilled long distance marksmen. One event in the competition was an Aerial Platform shoot from a Black Hawk helicopter. Some of these snipers could make legitimate claims to being the best shooters in the world, they have the awards and combat background to prove it, and yet, the performance during this event was abysmal to say the least.
Part of the issue derives from the absurdity of looking down a 10x scope (or even a 3x scope) while flying through the air, something I quickly learned as a sniper buzzing over Afghanistan in a Marine Huey for the first time. I have to agree with the advice given by John Plaster in the Maritime Sniper Manual by Fredrik Jonsson. Remove the long distance glass and roll with a red-dot sight on your rifle. The primary challenge in this situation will be target acquisition.
Ballistic solutions are possible, but in my opinion highly unlikely due to the number of variables involved in calculating for distance, wind speed, rotor blast from the helicopter, target movement, the helicopter’s movement, and whatever else the environment throws at you on a platform that is constantly moving. Using a red-dot sight, applying the fundamentals of marksmanship, and being prepared for a follow up shot is a far more realistic scenario.
For this reason, the choice of rifle should always be semi-automatic. In the picture above I carried the SR-25 which I found plenty effective at distances and heights which I will leave undisclosed in this space. In this instance, nighttime, I simply laid the rifle in my lap, turned on the PEQ-2 infrared laser and squeezed the trigger once I got the laser on target. Remember to use a snap link to secure your rifle to your person when in the air!
While Aerial Platform shooting certainly has it’s limitations, it is important not to throw the baby out with the bath water. A mobile shooter’s platform simply offers to many advantages when the sniper and the pilots work together as a team to discard the technique altogether.
Kit Up! contributor Jack Murphy is a former Ranger, Special Forces sniper and is the author of the military thriller Reflexive Fire.
{ 53 comments… read them below or add one }
Doubters obviously have not watched feral pig hunting from helicopter videos on youtube. Average joes dropping pigs (while moving and pig running) with ar-15's like they are getting paid.
I'm pretty sure shooting pigs from a helicopter 50 yards away, without the minor inconvenience of having to worryy about being shot at or shot down is not the same thing as making a precision shot in a combat environment from distance to support a ground element. Sorry, hunting does not = war.
Your right, its not the same thing, but the skills still apply. The likely reason civilian shooters are able to make hits like this so easy, is probably because they are using more instinctive skill (that, and the fact that civilians tend to be better shooters than military personnel) . Shooting is shooting, and military snipers tend to “over think” aerial platform shooting, and often bring the wrong tools to do the job right.
"civilians tend to be better shooters than military personnel." That is the dumbest statement I've ever heard. Clearly you've never been to a civilian range.
That’s SHOOTERS, not every person with a gun.
What an ignorant blanket statement. There is no real way to compare the two. Sure a civilian who practices shooting everyday in the same conditions, with no real tangible variables is likely to out point a military shooter in the civilian's environment. But let the tables be turned, and let bullets be flying overhead, with sweat dripping down your face and a mad case of cotton mouth, the military sniper will win. Yes, the fundamentals are the same, but it comes down to applying them in the situation in which you find yourself.
That said, what civilian regularly practices aerial platform shooting to which they can be judged against military snipers doing the same? You would think that a supposed Green Beret would have more sense than to speak before he talks.
@Ryan Flynn- I’m not going to debate with you because my statement has been proven over and over again. Also, I should have been more clear. I wasn’t talking about snipers specifically, nor was I referring to aerial platform shooting specifically, thats why its in parentheses. At this point in time its unfortunate, but civilians that shoot, practice more often, and tend to have better weapons manipulation skills than the average military service member.
Did you really just say that? Here? Of all places?
Totally agree, and I'm active duty combat arms. I fire WAYYY more rounds of small arms through my personal guns and do more training on my own time, than the Army provides for me. Also remember that for every 1 door-kicker there's another six or seven support troops. We're talkin' cooks, S-1 clerks, fuel truck drivers, etc. You really think that most of those guys could even come close to the civilians who shoot every weekend and take a couple of shooting classes every year? I've run too many ranges as an RSO/NCOIC to believe that crap. I know where you're comin' from SFMed…
Glad to see a couple of you guys have noticed this unfortunate trend.
@Em_twofouzero First of all thank you for your service in the military. Im glad to hear that you have taken it upon yourself to better your shooting skills on your off time. I wish more soldiers would do this, at least until the military gets its training straight (which may never happen). Hopefully your unit will allow you to pass on some of those skills to your mates. I believe good tactics increase mission success, but good shooting increases individual surviveability. Keep up the good work.
It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters.
Next time you are on Tatoonie, call me and we can go to Beggar's canyon and I'll let you take a few shots.
Greatest reply ever!
Well played, sir. Well played.
That's hilarious!
Brilliant, I applaud you sir.
What might be Mr. Murphy's thoughts on the abilities of Coast Guard snipers? I know they have to make precision shots at boat engines while chopper moving – target moving – and sea moving.
My thoughts are that it is very difficult. A semi-automatic .50 cal anti-material rifle like the Barret certainly helps even the odds as environmental factors will not reek havoc on the big .50 the way they would a small, lighter bullet.
It’s interesting that anyone would think aerial platform shooting is useless. Having a skilled aerial shooter overhead during operations is a priceless capability. The use of aerial shooters has increased substantially in the last few years. I know we were just getting into the training in Group in 2007. The problem has been that the training hasn’t really come full circle, because TTP’s are still being developed. One of the ideas that needs to change, is the idea that snipers are made for this job. A good CQB shooter is probably better suited. Long range precision rifles and magnified optics are NOT the way to go. As the author stated, red dots with no magnification and a semi-auto work nicely. 200m and in is probably the best distance for this task, although a good shooter could stretch it out a bit.
The aerial platform shooter is a fairly new concept that should be taken seriously. Training should be brought up to standard and shooters should be specialized in this skill (not just snipers). A course should be put in place to qualify such shooters. From an observation,surveillance,and overwatch standpoint, the aerial platform shooter brings an invaluable tool to the overall mission capability.
My thoughts as well, a lot of truth in these statements. I would say that a sniper is best suited for the job but a rifleman who is a decent shot can probably pull off the type of tasks I described as well.
I think Jack's write-up was balanced, he didn't say useless, just don't overestimate it. Total armchair comment here as I have never shot from a moving chopper, but it sure as hell seems like it would be much more difficult.
here is, perhaps a dumb question: would a more effective form of aerial support be a more accurate auto gun like an HK IAR with a larger mag?
M27 (HK IAR) with an EOTech or Micro1, plus 60 rounds magazine and ATPIAL… excellent choice.
I’m sure MSG Gordon, and SFC Shughart would loved to have discussed the intricacies of aerial sniping if they were around to do so.
Did they actually engage from the Blackhawk before they set down to extract Durant? If I recall correctly, they were in an orbit in a "sniper role" but were really just providing observation.
That was only one mission in their entire carrier. From what I have read, they didn’t take any shots during the battle. However if you do some research (read the book), they did take some shots to stop vehicles in the days leading up. I think that scene was in the movie too.
Fact is, CAG has been training this kind of thing for a long time. Our training TTP’s in Group came from their experience. I’m sure these guys were very good at aerial platform shooting.
Hey jack. Back in 1989 i went on an alouette flip with my R5 rifle and was given permission to plink away at a small tree while we orbited in a tigit port turn circle. I was quite accurate after the vertigo eased. Massive fun but over way to quickly, this was by the way the same day the pilot practiced an auto rotation without warning me or the other dude.
You have to train in order to be good at anything. I don't think it shows much against the method when you take snipers trained for stationary shots and throw in in a helo. Get some people who are trained in making those shots and start pushing the limits, then you will start to see the applicable methods.
I’m with ya Casey. Snipers aren’t aerial platform shooters. Their tendencies and habits probably impede their ability to shoot from helos. I think you make a good point. Let’s get some people up there that will take it to the next level. Maybe in the future, there will be an aerial platform marksman skill identifier in the Army.
I know some defense companies who train men with this type of shooting its the most challenging and the most expensive as well.
I don't have an expert opinion to give because I'm not a trained sniper. However, I agree with Mr Murphy in that aerial shooting is a viable tactic. If that means having aerial specialists, then that's the route to go.
the coastie HITRON Snipers have an impeccable record for disabling outboard engines with .50 cals.
I bet a cheap way to train would be to start shooting from a moving ground vehicles just so the shooter can get the idea of the shooting platform moving and working out the basics. If I rember right the big proplem at the sniper match was the teams trying to get a good shooting postion on the helo that would stop the vibrations and yet let them move enough to engage the target. The winning team ended up shooting on the floor of the helo shooting prone just because thats was the way they where more comfortable with and that was how they where trained to shoot. Also it is also how and where you are sitting on the helo. I have never shot a sniper rifle from a helo but I have done aerial gunnery with a M60 and done vehicle gunnery with a M2 and a M60 and shot from moving vehicles with a AR and made hits on targets so its just about finding the right technics. just my 2 cents.
Good observation. Shooting from an open back vehicle while moving is a training method that makes sense. I believe the CG HITRON shooters use this method for training purposes. It’s that lag and hold that makes this kind of Marksmanship tough.
Didn't they used to train WW II bomber gunners using a similar method?
ive seen the coast guard snipers using little eotechs on there .50 cals shooting boats and outboards motors
I saw that International Sniper Competition episode. Pittsburgh SWAT scored three hits with an SR-25. Go Pittsburgh.
Whatever happened to "door gunners"? Wasn't their job to shoot bad guys on the ground before they could shoot the chopper? I'd rather have a guy with a 240 performing overwatch for me than a guy with a sniper rifle. More of a sledge hammer approach I guess, but when my a&& is on the line I don't care. Of course, I was just combat support and don't know much about these things. Shooting from the skids of a little bird sure looks like fun though.
My solution was an M-14 w/ an Eotech, a PEQ 2 and a beta mag loaded with straight tracer. Worked okay.
Didnt the recent Kabul Hotel seige come to a pretty quick end once the NZ SAS had aerial snipers trying to take the guys on the roof out? I'm not sure if they hit them but seem to remember a reporter saying they blew themselves up… obviously things were unpleasant enough for them under that pressure for them to take that action – if the reports are accurate.
Anyone ever see the Magpul Ariel Platform Operations video? They had lots of good tips and ideas for Ariel Platform shooting. Now I'm not saying that it's a replacement for actual training, but it gives you an idea of some of the gear they've used in the past. Like the idea of a simple AR15 with a simple red-dot style optic… just make sure you have a lanyard on your mags so they don't fly away into the tail rotor on a reload.
They did mention the "Shooting out of a truck" training method if you don't have a helo readily available.
Was pretty informative for me, but hey, I'm just an avid civilian shooter… but damn it'd be fun to try!
How is an I.A.R. really different from a traditional door gun with a red dot? A beta mag and quick follow up shots sounds more like suppression, albeit slightly more precision suppression. For truly precision aerial shots I think you would be better off using a remote mounted weapon with a sophisticated fire control system. Obviously, a fixed wing drone would be a superior platform for this and you’d probably want something like a 20mm over a rifle caliber, although you might be able to develop purely kinetic rounds if you wanted to be really stealthy.
Remote weapon systems,kinetic energy projectiles,and 20mm equipped drones are completely different concepts. That’s more like CAS.
In "About Face," COL Hackworth discusses employing snipers from an arial platform working in conjunction with attack helo's. This seems to be an age old challenge.
http://books.google.com/books?id=H2ofpCdu4boC&…
Page 679
I believe the author should have doon a little more reasearch. Although, he may have been a qualified sniper, the relm of ariel sniping has to go the U.S.Coast Guard HITRON units. The weapom of choice is either a Barret 50 or a modified M-14 with their choice of optics. They are charged with taking out the propulsion units of any go fast and if fired upon will defend the air crew with hits to the boat crew. They may not be the most sthealthy but they do hit what they aim at.
What is the author supposed to do more research on? The story is dead on. The man has been in the air on aerial shooting missions, what more research do you want? While the Coast Guard HITRON Squad is a fantastic asset, they are not the only ones in the world capable of aerial platform operations.
I just dont understand what you are trying to say the author needed more work on.?.?
Hi Neil, what the Coast Guard is doing is another good proof of concept that helps show that aerial platform shoots are a valid TTP, however, there are some other considerations. When a Coast Guard sniper takes out a engine block from the air, I highly suspect that the helicopter pilot is able to match the speed of the boat and maintain a heading without having to change direction. This makes taking the shot much easier for the shooter. For a military sniper offering top cover for troops on the ground or straight up target interdiction, I doubt if all those factors will line up for the shooter very often if at all.
I don't think the author is lacking in topical research, I'm sure he's aware of what can be accomplished with a rifle from an aerial platform, but the emphasis really is that while this specialized field has greatly expanded, it still has limited use, and the possible precision from that type of platform is an inherent limitation; not to mention that this is a skill that requires a significant amount of resources just to practice and develop TTP/SOPs with, let alone develop a mastery that many unit commanders would think is easy to achieve because they aren't aware of just how many variables come into play.
The most fundamental issue would be consistency and muscle memory through regular proficiency. This is not a method that could be used in such regular frequency to allow for a level of proficiancy suitable to ensure sufficient success given the risk of the exposure as an airborne target. Pig hunting every weekend is stimulating and fun with unlimited opportunity to ******* with no risk of the pigs (or their hidden pig friends) shooting back.
Shooting from a chopper, shooting from a truck, shooting from a hide, shooting on the move on foot and on the move. The common denomintor is? TRAINING, PRACTICE, TRAINING, PRACTICE and so on. Every platform and day has differing dynamics.. Wind, temp, mood, flu, dear john letter, hang over, emotion, and a plethora of other factors. We are human.
i shoot deer from helicopters in new zealand it is not easy but it is easy if you have a good pilot to set you up i have seen no mention of this just my 2cents also a red dot with no magnification is what i have found to do the best job either on .223 .308 or a shotgun and most of my shooting has been in the mountains in a little under powered r22
i shoot deer from helicopters in new zealand it is not easy but it is easy if you have a good pilot to set you up i have seen no mention of this just my 2cents also a red dot with no magnification is what i have found to do the best job either on .223 .308 or a shotgun and most of my shooting has been in the mountains in a little under powered r22.
All true FormerSFMedic,
Spent 9 years on active duty (infantry/airborne type) was a decent enough shot; not in any SMUs or fancy stuff but after I left service I ran roughly 50K rounds a year through AR platforms and handguns. Did it for decades, the only guys in the military whom could touch me, regardless off the unit were the one’s that spent tons and tons of their own time training. There are just to many other tasks day to day in any SOF unit, to reach a certain level without spending your own time in training.
South African game rangers shoot tranquilizers and live ammunition at animals from choppers all the time. And not just elephants, smaller game like Springbok and endangered wild dogs. They can't just shoot the creature any old place either, especially since they'll be trying to avoid unnecessary injury to something that is being captured rather than kulled. Also, these guys are incredible instinctive marksmen, and don't have the budget for quality scopes on their standard issue FAL's or R1's.
And poachers too. A high profile case is underway in the country right now, after a group of wealthy farmers where arrested for poaching. They were killing rhinos from a private helicopter. I think it was a Robinson 44. Not the most stable flying platform. Basically a flying bicycle.
And why does everyone get all uppity when former SF dudes speak their mind?
This is very, very true. Many combat and SOF units will have priority over ammo and range time for training, but its still nothing compared to some of the civilian shooters who will spend every weekend at a range. Also keep in mind that less than 10% of the military are combat arms, the rest are service and support, and are always pushed back in line when a "line" unit wants to put some lead down range.