Here’s another in the “news you can use” category from master trainer and firearms expert Larry Vickers on the Army’s misplaced belief that cleanliness is next to godliness when it comes to the Beretta M9.
Cleaning vs. Lube — LAV on Army Training
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{ 29 comments… read them below or add one }
What? You mean I'm not supposed to cut a piece of wire coat hanger and use it to scrape every last bit of carbon off of the chamber of my M4? Bah! Heresy!
LOL! I have seen that before. What Larry is saying is absolutely true. The Army is so scared of “attracting dirt to the gun” that I’ve seen soldiers go for months in Afghanistan without lubing at all. Yet they clean their guns once a week during the same period. WTH!
My rule was if I could move the lube around on the part, that was too much lube, but I had too be able to see it was lubed or that was too little.
Yep, I did the same, and I do so now with my own personal firearms. Never had a problem.
Read Pat Rogers' articles on his "Filthy 14", a Bravo Company carbine that has over 43,000 rounds fired without cleaning, but with regular lubrication. Wet and dirty is GTG!
You guys and LAV are way off. The AK47 of handguns? It's not the 1911 or the Clock. It's the Lorcin, or Hi-Point, or maybe something from Raven Arms! They must be awesome or we wouldn't find 'em so often in such high end shooting locations as meth houses, shitty old cars worth less than the shoes of the guys driving them, rent-by-the-hour motel rooms and unnamed trailer parks of dubious ownership. As to the Glock vs. 1911, the main differences are obviously in handling. Glocks look better shot sideways gangsta-style, but 1911s look better shot side by side, on in each hand. Anyway, we'd educate you more but we're off to buy a double-barrel shotgun. Cuz, you know, when you hit someone with both barrels it will actually lift them off the ground and throw them backwards. No, seriously, we saw it on TV.
Amen!!!
I've kept my service M-92FS lubed all the time and that's why I never had issue with it. And of course most BIG complainers about the Beretta is from Army solders Not Marines or Sailors who have better training in weapons maintenance.
Well Lance baby, I don't know if your just plain dumb or ignorant. You will note in the August Marine Corps Times magazine that the 50th military marksmanship competition was held at the Marine base Quantico on July 23rd. The U.S. Army took 18 of the 19 station win's. In a number of cases the Marine teams complained about fowling of their weapons due to dust. Maybe if they were sailors, they would have been able to keep their weapons lub'ed better.
By the way…..during last years Best Ranger competition, where the two Marine teams never even finished the 3 day event, one of the Marines lost his weapon on the course. He was finally able to find it the next day. Yup, Marines sure do know their weapons.
Wet and dirty is how I like my guns and girls. ;-)
Sorry had to be said.
Best comment ever.
So true!
i knew someone had to go there….
Is the M4/M16 suppose to clean itself like back in the 60s when they were first issued without any cleaning kits? Yes proper firearm maintence is a good discipline.
There is a huge difference between how the Marines and Army use weapons. The Marines keep their weapons both clean and lubricated. The Army simply makes them clean. WTF?
Clean doesn't let metal to metal slide. Lube does.
I seem to recall the fetish against lube on weapons started when the Army started storing rifles in an arms room instead of in a rifle rack in the barracks. When we stored them in the rifle rack they were cleaned and lubed and locked in the rack. Under the arms room method weapons were cleaned, lubed and then the lube wiped off. Also, visable lube on a weapon is a gig during an IG inspection. It is true that lube will attract and hold dust, another IG gig.
I think having a spot free weapon during an inspection is fine. When you put the gun away for storage, it needs to have a coating of oil on all the metal components. When you take it to the range or use it operationly, it needs to be wet. Like coming out from around the pins wet.
My brother who was drafted by the Marine Corps during the Vietnam War said that even though he was taught to clean his M16 every day it still jammed anytime he fired more than two magazines. He said some of the Marine NCO's got to switch back to using M14's but LanceCpl's and below were forced to keep their M16's which put his squad at risk. He still calls the Marine Corps "The Crotch," to this day.
Know your weapon is the key and to make sure it operates you have to know her best.This means you know what needs cleaning and lubbing to keep her working.We are not talking about back at base clean but what keeps her going and going. Learn your weapon and their is no problem it is not a black and white clear cut thing each weapon has it's own personality and you have to feel what's best top keep her rocking and rolling.
lubing
In Vietnam it was a constant hassle. A West Pointer would inspect you before you went out. Shined boots and the dry clean weapon. Then you would rub dirt on your boots, and squirt liberal amounts of LSA all over your M-16. The troops that didnt want the hassle of getting it clean again, didnt lube liberally. They were the ones that couldnt get 2 mags through their weapons if contact was made. Again, this is not a problem if you dont have to shoot your weapon. 95% of weapons never get shot except at a range. These REMFs never had a problem, and they stayed in, and continue policies that they thought were just fine.
Bill, West Pointer here. So it was ONLY the West Pointers that would inspect you before you went out and the only things they looked for were clean weapons and shined boots? Personally, I think A-holes are evenly distributed across the officer ranks. What was this guys name? I'd like to look him up. BTW, what unit was it and since you were going out I'd guess you were 11B (like me).
BTW, more West Pointers have died in the last ten years than any other school in the nation (over 80).
I know what you mean and i have to laugh because it's true, not with all like Majrod says and the ahole are a plenty no matter the butter bar. We just stuck to what TOP said and the Platoon leader.You know the man with his shiz all the way together. H3ll i have seen butter bars cr@p their pants on their first time out no matter were they came from. My first time out i admit i was a bit high in the pucker factor.The thing is i would admit it but the butter bar would just keep changing his pants never manning up.
Different maintenance is needed for different environments…excessive lube in arctic conditions isn’t going to make your gun work better…that said…I agree with the main article for most situations. M9, Sig 226/229, M1911 are all battle tested, and there are incidents when they failed to work when they were needed most. Bottom line…there’s never a 100% guaruntee…but not lubing gives you only a 50/50 chance…and those aint good odds!
I KEEP MY 45 CLEAN AND LUBED NO PROBLEM.
@ Carl Webber
Sorry to say but your ignorant. Every service servaey shows massive problems with weapons maintenance in the Army and constant solder ive talked too says NCOs and officers constantly complain there M-9 is falling apart because they never lubed them in Iraq or A-stain because they were never given proper pistol lube. Most Marines and other services ive talked too has have much better reviews of the M-9 because they take care of them better. Not your fault some dumb generals fault.
Lance – Every survey? Name some? Since the overwhelming majority of sailors and airmen don't even handle small arms routinely are they part of these surveys? Sounds like unsubstantiated Army bashing.
Even Vickers comments only about the Army because that's where his background is. So many "others" beating up on the Army that has at least THREE times the number of pistols in combat than even the Marine Corps has (maybe more since sidearms are issued a little more liberally).
Not saying that there are some pogues who don't take care of their weapons. Heck Jessica Lynch's unit had folks that couldn't do immediate action and I have seen rear echelon troops during desert storm actually wrap their weapons in plastic but soldiers who have to rely on their weapons take care of them and its EXCEEDINGLY rae that someone "breaks" a weapon because they cleaned it too hard..
Agreed with Coastiebrian different environment requires different maintenance no way around it
The Army's own PS magazine advises against "white glove" inspections. Sadly, 20 year old VHS tapes and garrison commands with nothing better to do mandate that we white glove our weapons in garrisons. CLP does attract sand.