I’ve always been a big fan of HK since my first exposure to the HK SOCOM .45 in the SEAL Teams.  It was a big gun but ultra reliable and very accurate.  I used this extensively as my secondary, and favored the .45 to the 9mm round for stopping power.

The main reason I initially went to an HK over the SIG 226 (also a great weapon), was that we had a string of bad magazines from the Team.  The springs were bad internally and I had multiple magazine failures (e.g. the bullets were tumbling internally in the magazine) and was uncomfortable using them. When you’re climbing a caving ladder at night to board a hostile ship this is the last thing you want to think about, believe me. 

VBSS Training

 

I took my new USP .45 to the range with Thomas (like a brother to me) for a few hours of range ops.  The first video is of some magazine change work and the second video shows how to break down the USP and assemble it again.  Enjoy the videos.

Out here-Brandon



From the HK Website-Originally designed for the American market, the USP (Universal Self-loading Pistol) has found international acceptance as an accurate and ultra-reliable handgun. Features favored by U.S. law enforcement and military users provided much of the design criteria for the USP. The controls are uniquely American, influenced by such famous designs as the Government Model 1911 pistol.

Features

  • Corrosion proof fiber-reinforced polymer frame
  • Polygonal bore profile for increased velocity, easier cleaning, and longer barrel life
  • Can be converted to any of nine trigger firing modes
  • Corrosion resistant “Hostile Environment” blued finish
  • Oversized trigger guard for use with gloves
  • One piece machined slide made from nitro-carburized steel
  • Universal mounting grooves for installing accessories
  • Ambidextrous magazine release lever
  • Extended slide release
  • Patented Lock-Out Safety device

5-15 yards head & chest shot groups with the HK USP 45

{ 104 comments… read them below or add one }

Johnny Quest November 8, 2011 at 8:36 am

Brandon –

While the HK is a fine sidearm, it is difficult to justify the cost of the darn things when equally as good or better(often depending on personal preferences) opitions are available at around 1/2 to 2/3 the cost.

Reply

BrandonWebb November 8, 2011 at 9:56 am

I'm with Mike below but see your point. It's a lot about personal preference.

Reply

Anthony November 8, 2011 at 1:40 pm

Personally I prefer the USP 45 over everything else with Sig p220 coming in a close second. The ergonomics, accuracy and reliability are just perfect on the HK where I find myself compromising a bit on the Sig. I am not knocking Glocks, springfields or M&p's they are great guns for the price but when you fire something like a Sig 229, 226 or a USP or MK 23 you feel the difference over a g19 or the like.

Reply

Hammer27 November 8, 2011 at 8:41 am

Any views on the Vicker designed HK45?

Reply

Mike November 8, 2011 at 9:16 am

I've owned a USP40 for the last 10 years, and never so much as a hiccup from it. As far as the price, I paid less for mine than I would've for a Beretta M92 or a Colt M1911. And .40S&W is a very effective round as I've discovered. I'm happy with mine…

Reply

Johnny Quest November 8, 2011 at 10:17 am

I am a 1911 guy at heart, but carried a Glock 19 for 20+ years. I would rather have a bow and arrow than a M92. Otherwise, the M&P 45 gets my vote for the best bang for the buck in the genre of plastic pistols at about 1/2 the cost of an HK 45 and made in America to boot! Plenty of dineros left for extra mags and ammo.

Reply

BrandonWebb November 8, 2011 at 10:27 am

Been to the S&W factory, the company has a GREAT brand and I would love to support them but they copy existing product and havne't innovated in years. The whole M&P line was based off of copying other manufacturers (like Glock). Just calling a spade a spade here…Believe me, I would love to see something cool and orginal out of S&W. Love the 686 revolver…also a favorite of mine.

Reply

Johnny Quest November 8, 2011 at 12:34 pm

I beg to differ on you take of the M&P being a copy of the Glock. It is far from it, but I acknowldedge most if not all of the current polymer framed pistols owe some debt to Glock bringing the genre to the forefront.

One of the biggest differences is the M&P was designed around the .40 and handled all other calibers well from the get go. The Glock was designed around the 9mm and had trouble with .40 and particularly .45 for years. This is well documented.

M&P is available with a manual safety. M&P is ambidextrious. M&P has a stainless steel chassis imbedded in the frame that imparts rigidity and offers hard points for roll pins. M&P ergonomics are far superior to a Glock and this is particulalry true in the .45 models. You have to be able to palm a basketball to use a Glock .45. M&P comes out of the box with superior sights. M&P has interchangeable back straps which Glock just came out with in the Gen 4, which by the way has been problem plagued. My .02

Reply

FormerSFMedic November 8, 2011 at 2:24 pm

Johnny, I couldn't have said it better. Although Brandon is mostly right, I feel the M&P is one of the best polymer pistols on the market. The ergonomics are phenomenal, especially for someone that shoots a 1911 (the grip angles are the same). The out of the box trigger is nasty and somewhat more complicated than the Glock. However, the more complicated trigger allows for more refinement. I dropped an Apex Forward Set Sear Trigger in my M&P, and WOW! The M&P is a great pistol, and it's taking a lot of market share away from Glock on the LEO side of the house.

I must say though, I do like my HK's. The P30 and HK45C are my favorites. The only problem I have is the bore height. The HK tends to sit high in the hand like a Sig, and it feels pretty awkward since I shoot a lot of Glock and 1911. Oh, and the mag release is in a non-traditional location, which makes it hard to get to at times. Other than that, they have been flawless. My beef with HK is that they tend to treat the US commercial and competition market in a less than respectful manner. This is something that has been known in the industry for some time.

I would love to take the HK and M&P out for a head to head someday. Brandon, we should do that sometime.

Lance November 8, 2011 at 10:59 am

Id carry a Beretta 92 over a 9mm Glock anytime the real advantage of a Glock is in larger calibers in 9mm world the M-9 dose the job just fine Ive out shot many Glock shooter with my M-92.

Reply

FormerSFMedic November 8, 2011 at 12:28 pm

Lance, I'm glad you've had great success with your M9, but the Glock 19 is a much better combat secondary. I carried both the M9 and the Glock 19 in OIF and OEF-A. The M9 has some serious magazine issues that make the gun finicky. It's also more sensitive to harsh conditions, and requires more skill to keep it running. The worst part about the M9 is the trigger and the safety. Beretta seriously failed on the safety/decocker location and the way it works. The G19 has none of these issues, is lightweight, compact, goes bang everytime, and still holds the same amount of ammo.

Reply

Go Navy! November 8, 2011 at 12:29 pm

FormerSFMedic: I agree with you there. I haven't have much luck with the M9 either. The magazine issue being one of the issues and it's very sensitive to dirty / sandy condition. Given the 2 choice, I would prefer the glock. I had no issues with G17 that I have carried before.

BrandonWebb November 8, 2011 at 2:07 pm

Glock 19=Solid. Carried it in Iraq as a secondary.

Johnny Quest November 8, 2011 at 12:38 pm

The only advantage to the M92 was back in the day the barrels were conveniently and easily threaded for a suppressor. Other than that, not much to offer. I gotta say, the 93R was fun though.

IIRC, there was a major redesign after it was adopted by the US because slides were cracking with great regularity.

Reply

FormerSFMedic November 8, 2011 at 2:07 pm

You're right Johnny, early M9's had some serious problems. Matter of fact, it became a huge fiasco in the late 90's. Slides were cracking due to the fact that they didn't contain enough Tellurium. The 125gr military 9mm ammo didn't help things either. It was, and is, super hot for a 9mm. After they fixed that problem, locking blocks started cracking. Frames cracked, magazines were not to spec, and statistics were proving that the M9 was not as thoroughly tested as the Military thought. Now, some of those problems have been improved upon, but most still exist. The only difference today, is that the Military has a parts replacement schedule it follows. I don't know about you, but I don't want to trust my life on a gun that needs a new locking block every 1,500 rounds!

Riceball November 8, 2011 at 10:30 am

Question, what exactly is meant by Universal Self Loading? What's universal about the pistol what does self loading mean, is that just a fancy way of saying semi-automatic or are they trying to imply that the thing can actually load magazines on its own whether magically loading an empty magazine with or replacing an empty magazine in the pistol with a fresh one?

Reply

Ashpile November 8, 2011 at 12:48 pm

In german USP stands for Universelle Selbstlade Pistole. So, an more accurate translation would be universal semi-automatic pistol, as Selbstladend is synonymus with semi-automatic in german. Universal refers to the possibe area of usage, meaning like 'everywhere' or 'for every application'.

Reply

Riceball November 8, 2011 at 12:54 pm

Got it, thanks.

Reply

jrexilius November 8, 2011 at 10:43 am

I've been shooting the USP .45 for 16 years now and it is a part of my body. It's bomb-proof, accurate and the controls are amazingly ergonomic for me, gloves, wet, muddy, whatever. I am an HK fan boy now because of 16 years of reliability with that sidearm.

Reply

BrandonWebb November 8, 2011 at 2:07 pm

HK-accept no compromise.

Reply

Lance November 8, 2011 at 10:57 am

The main reason the USP flopped in most Law Enforcement sales is that its too expensive a Beretta M9 or a Glock would be half the price of one USP. Bulky size is why SOCOM never used them very much a Glock 21 or a M-1911 is alot smaller in size.

Nut its still a decent handgun. just need money and allot of it to have one.

Reply

Nate November 8, 2011 at 11:43 am

Haven't yet had a chance to get my hands on one, however I agree on the .45's superior stopping power over the 9mm being a major advantage. I've owned a CZ 75 SP-01 9mm for a bit of time now and love it, however my next purchase will be at least a .40 if not a .45 for the simple reason of the stopping power.

Reply

Battalion Commander November 8, 2011 at 12:16 pm

To me its about the correct caliber, how it feels in my hands, and how reliable it is; manufacturerer doesn't matter.

Reply

Go Navy! November 8, 2011 at 12:25 pm

The HK brand of firearms are excellent. I haven't had any issues MP5s, USP series pistols or G36 rifle. For my personal finances, HK is pretty much out of my price range. I would go with Springfield XD series or the FN FNX series (I wanted something different). Both have over 1,000 rounds and no issues at all.

Reply

sdog November 8, 2011 at 12:54 pm

i have an FN FNP-45 tactical, it is an awesome gun.

Reply

Marc November 8, 2011 at 1:12 pm

"Stopping power" is a myth, just as .45 having more of it.

Reply

BrandonWebb November 8, 2011 at 2:09 pm

Marc-I disagree. I've shot things and bad people and # of grains matter and so does velocity. Simple physics. Bigger hammer does more damage. -Brandon

Reply

FormerSFMedic November 8, 2011 at 3:11 pm

Marc, I know exactly what you're trying to say, but it just isn't the case. As a Medic, I got to know various Gunshot Wounds (GSW) very intimately. As a ballistic wound consultant, I have researched hundreds of case studies, seen as many tests, and learned from some of the best ballistics experts in the business. "Stopping Power" may not be the word for it, but the difference between .45 and 9mm is significant, especially when using military FMJ. .45 ACP has a decisive advantage on the battlefield, and I have personally witnessed this fact.

Reply

Marc November 8, 2011 at 1:14 pm

No such thing as "stopping power".

Reply

John Doe November 8, 2011 at 1:53 pm

I think there's a difference between the put down power in calibers, it just doesn't apply so much in combat pistols.

Reply

fletch August 2, 2013 at 12:19 am

I believe you mean there is no such thing as "knock down" power. Seems like you read that somewhere and then failed at trying to use it here. There are laws of physics that defy "knock down" power, because true knock down power would also knock down the shooter. As for stopping power, ask anyone who has ever needed to defend themselves with either .45 or 9mm. The facts and all scientfic test show that the 230g .45 cal does more damage than a 115g 9mm round. It is more likely to "stop" your attacker than a 9mm would because of its shear size. Gosh, the 9mm/.45 debate is soooooo played out. Go pick up both bullets in your hand and tell me which one you would rather need to have pulled from your body.

Reply

BrandonWebb November 8, 2011 at 2:10 pm

Anyone who doesn't think there's a difference in stopping power: When given a choice between getting shot in the chest with a 9mm or .45 which would you pick? That should end the debate. -Brandon

Reply

Tom November 8, 2011 at 2:48 pm

Brandon, you've really taken over here. Of the 31 posts, 6 are yours. Never seen a host so involved.

Reply

BrandonWebb November 8, 2011 at 2:58 pm

Tom-
Just like to stay engaged when I can! -Brandon

Reply

nobody November 8, 2011 at 3:05 pm

I like it please stay at it you bring more to the table. not saying the others don't do good, but i like the things you bring up that most don't even think about. Maybe it is just me and my back ground but please keep going.

Reply

Mr_X November 8, 2011 at 3:13 pm

I have the USP .45 Tactical version. Most accurate pistol I've ever shot (and I have owned many). I can put every round on a quarter at 25 yards with it. It has thousands of rounds through it and has been dead on reliable from the beginning. It is the one I reach for the most when it matters. People like to scoff at price, but I think it makes more sense to scoff at people cheaping out on the tools that may potentially keep them alive.

Reply

nobody November 8, 2011 at 3:19 pm

.45 ACP round is king in close quarter never leave home without it!!!!.

Reply

Marty in Canada November 8, 2011 at 4:02 pm

Love my USP .45 Compact tactical. Fits soooo well in my hand and has the ergonomics and reliability I desire PLUS, its so damn accurate. I'll never get rid of this gun although others may come and go, the USP stays for life. HK Fanboy? Yup! PS Brandon, I love this site!

Reply

Tinker November 8, 2011 at 4:57 pm

Brandon!

More articles like this please! How about your take on various weapons moving forward? =)

HK416, ACR, etc. =)

Reply

Brandon Webb November 8, 2011 at 7:57 pm

Tinker-you got it!

Reply

George November 8, 2011 at 5:10 pm

Can you really blame the M9 problems on the much publicized problems with the Checkmate mags? Afterall, Beretta factory mags have always been preferred to the Checkmates which were fulfilled under a different contract. It's a bit like blaming M4 problems on a bad mag fulfilled by another contractor. And in Checkmate's defense, the mag's were built to military spec's which is why they were so problematic in sandy climates. But again — these were built to the military spec's. The new "sand resistant" mags by Airtronic (they got the contract after Checkmate got blamed for following military specs, don't seem to have the problem.

The cracking slides were indeeed due to tellurium in the slides making them more brittle. These slides were also made for an order for France which were redirected to fill the M9 order.

The locking block problem is also a bit difficult to understand. Many M9/92FS have put far tens of thousands of rounds with no issue. Beretta has since redesigned the locking block.

A real issue is the trigger return spring which sucks.

I really think the issue is how many pistols get deployed in the hundreds of K and beat on for 30 years and all firing very hot 124 grain NATO rounds?

Reply

Go Navy! November 9, 2011 at 3:43 am

I wonder how the Beretta M9A1 is doing? Is the quaity any better? Or did they just issue it basically with a new mag and rail for lights?

Reply

George November 8, 2011 at 5:13 pm

Are you comparing 9mm ball to 45 ball?

Seems like they're both equally poor "man stoppers."

JHP vs JHP, there's a discussion.

Reply

BrandonWebb November 8, 2011 at 5:23 pm

Yes.Please excuse any shorthand, spelling or grammar errors sent from my iPhone

Reply

major.rod November 9, 2011 at 7:05 am

George, obviously specialized ammo can enhance the effect of a bullet. Unfortunately HP is incompatible with military use.

Reply

george November 8, 2011 at 5:15 pm

It doesn't. Not all and doesn't add anything to the debate.

If someone put a 9mm ball right through your heart, would it matter?

Reply

Brandon Webb November 8, 2011 at 8:16 pm

Thanks for the kind words!

Reply

swilliams November 8, 2011 at 8:32 pm

I wish my glock 21 felt like an USP instead it's like holding a 2×4.

Reply

jrexilius November 9, 2011 at 6:31 am

No kidding. The 21 is FFFUUUGGLY in the hand. Glocks are great guns but that one is dog to use..

Reply

Gunslinger November 8, 2011 at 9:25 pm

Agreed with Brandon on the HK. Anyone gunslinger who carries for a living wants a gun that goes bang when you pull the trigger. Honestly, cost is the last thing on your mind. I know recreational shooters like to complain about how much crap cost, but guess what when your pack'n daily it really doesn't matter. Mil or LEO(which I am) want to have odds in their favor. Saving a couple hundred bucks doesn't mean crap if your dead!

Reply

Go Navy! November 9, 2011 at 3:29 am

I agree with you on to a point. I had a Springfield GI version 1911 which I got for $469, which is made in Brazil. I had issues from day one. The rounds would either mis feed or stove pipe from empty casing. It would do this consistently for almost every round. Springfield sent me a new mag, polish feed ramp and replaced the extractor. ( At Springfield 3x) The issue still occurred. I ended up selling it back to the store for them to deal with Springfield. Since then, I got the Kimber Stainless Steel II (2x cost), no issues what so ever. Yes, you get what you paid for. HK seems to be highest cost in all aspects.

Reply

Go Navy! November 9, 2011 at 3:40 am

FormerSFMedic: The S&W M&P series is excellent. I had a little doubt when S&W launch it back in 2006. My dad carries the M&P .40C as LEO and he loves it. My M&P AR is great. No issues either. I would love to see M&P and HK go head to head! As for the civilian market, HK would have more Civilians using their product if they promote more or lower the costs more. But they figure they don't have to because of their "brand".

Reply

Go Navy! November 9, 2011 at 3:47 am

SDOG: FN makes a good pistol. I have about 500 rds throught the FNX for now (.40 cal is expensive) and not a single issue. Ergonormics are great and it's truly ambi controls (no swapping needed). FNP 45 is cool. Do you have optic sight on it?

Reply

Cloggman November 9, 2011 at 4:59 am

absolutely right, and who could disagree with you?

Reply

Quicksaber November 9, 2011 at 6:07 am

I have carried a HK USP 40 v1 for over 15 years it was the older verion that came with a rifled barrel instead of polygonal barrel. I changed to a ambidextrous safety and placed XS big dot sites on it and I placed a surefire light on it in 1997 and I have never had a issue with it. The problem with the HK was the weapon came out just as the hi cap mag band came into effect so there where limited hi cap mags which made the price of the mags go thru the roof and the light rail was a HK design and no one else used it. HK at the time was not very friendly to the civilain market so alot of people where turned off to the gun because of the price of the mags and limetd after market accessory and HK customer service. Just my 2 cents.

Reply

David Knuth November 9, 2011 at 6:19 am

Not Brandon, but it's a decent enough pistol. Not worth the cost of the gun when I can get a regular USP for half the cost if I look around a bit.

It IS accurate and fairly ergonomic, though.

Reply

Will November 9, 2011 at 6:52 am

P226 always have problems with magazines, I know UK forces have been having problems with them.

Reply

BLWM November 9, 2011 at 8:08 am

I carried the USP .45 and the Glock 17 for years. When it finally came down to picking one I went with the Glock for two simple reasons. WEIGHT and SIZE. The USP is built for concealment, particularly on a small framed person. Both were great guns and honestly the only think I miss about the USP was the oversized trigger guard the let me shoot it with winter gloves on. Oh, and the HP scope-mount/compensator was a lot of fun too.

Reply

Dave November 9, 2011 at 9:08 am

Anything made by HK is the best $600 gun you will pay $800 for.

I think the same can be said for SiG (my preferance). Given the comparitive difference between other similar guns (that aren't 1911s), you're paying a $200 premium for the name brand.

Reply

CBRguy November 9, 2011 at 9:11 am

Nice. Kinda like the MK23 I got to shoot out in Niland CA back in my active days

Reply

SNK November 9, 2011 at 9:13 am

I wanna look into getting a FN FiveSeven 17 cal.

Reply

Go Navy! November 9, 2011 at 10:04 am

The thing I don't like about the Five Seven is the 5.7mm rounds…..not every store sells the ammo.

Reply

Johnny Quest November 9, 2011 at 10:43 am

HK fanboydom is a disorder nearly as bad as liberalism. :)

Reply

Lance November 9, 2011 at 11:09 am

Be careful prediction on military usage and contacts will cause major debate and arguments on here. Just talk about the gun its 100% OK. I hope you talk about M-4 and AR upgrades soon.

Reply

Go Navy! November 10, 2011 at 6:31 am

How about Piston vs Direct Gas impingment on AR? Almost every manufactur makes one…is it worth the extra costs?

Reply

Marc November 9, 2011 at 12:34 pm

The correct answer is you couldn't tell the difference so the choice is moot.

Reply

Cav Trooper November 9, 2011 at 1:46 pm

I carry the HK USP 40 everyday for the last 13 years. I never had one problem. Yes the prices can get up there but like the old saying you get what you pay for. If you buy cheap you get unreliable garbage that will not be able to use. As for the weight hell ammo does not last for ever you can use it as a club and when you get more ammo it will still fire. To all of the HK doubters you can't beat quality and HK is quality.

Reply

gunslinger6 November 9, 2011 at 2:59 pm

Brandon, I think thats one of the things that makes Kit Up!, is that you guys are engaged with the site. Keep it up!

Reply

willford November 9, 2011 at 4:21 pm

H&K 45c Beats anything i have ever had. I have had a GOLD cup, and a custom build race gun, all in 45 ACP. NOTHING BEATS A H&K PERIOD. Next is a SIG 228, or 232 . H&K 93's and 91's also

Reply

Mike November 9, 2011 at 8:09 pm

My H&K USP40 was a bargain "at the right place at the right time"…I came out $500 poorer, and one fine pistol became mine. Several thousand rounds later, it's still flawless. I'd do it again in a minute.

Reply

Go Navy! November 10, 2011 at 6:32 am

Lucky you Mike. All the HK's here costs around $1,000.

Reply

Bargis November 10, 2011 at 2:07 am

After shooting H-K products for 30 some years, all I can say is I've never had a problem with any products. Reliable-accurate-dependable-period.

Reply

pbj November 10, 2011 at 5:50 am

Review the Robinson XCR too. A newer one with the 2-stage trigger. I want to know!

Reply

Ol' Redneck November 10, 2011 at 8:05 am

Yep. H&K is the way to go. They are a little spendy but worth every penny. BTW, I know the military doesn't have much experience with the .40 S&W round. That's too bad because it really is the "go to" round for -let's call it overall effectiveness. I own one 1911a1, a S&W 9mm, a .357 Mag S&W, a couple of .38's, a Springfield XD.40, a Ruger SR40, and my H&K USP .40. Of all of my pistols, the H&K is my favorite. (My wife likes it so much she stole it from me, though, so I only get to shoot it when she says I can ;-). The advantage of the .40 S&W is that it is very close to the 9mm is velocity and very close to the .45 in bullet size, so it take the best of both. It really is the best overall round out there. I sent my Beretta model 96 to the sand box with my son and unfortunately never got it back. So, in sum, having had almost every modern pistol caliber out there, the .40 S&W H&K gets my vote.

Reply

Go Navy! November 10, 2011 at 8:34 am

I agree with you there on the .40 cal. It's my carry round which is my FN FNX. The .40 cal is thr right mix. I can still get enough rounds in a magazine….12 rds vs 7 or 8 rds on 1911. Some the I will get an HK prices go down …….(ya right).

Reply

Johnny Quest November 10, 2011 at 10:06 am

No, and it is unnecessary. The DI works just fine.

Reply

Marc November 10, 2011 at 11:57 am

People with more experience in that field than you supposedly have deny this. Read Dr. Vincent DiMaio's "Gunshot Wounds". I'll give him more credit than any comment on a gun blog.

Reply

FormerSFMedic November 10, 2011 at 5:59 pm

Marc, when you work in ballistics as I do, you find that others in the field typically fall into one of three categories. I'm not going to go over those categories and what they entail, but suffice it to say, those individuals are very stern in their beliefs. It usually doesn't take long to figure out which category someone believes in. After reading a rather long excerpt from Dr. DiMaio, I can tell you that me and him are on the same page.

So, I'm not sure where it is you think he is denying my claims, but I would love to hear your thoughts. I don't know if you're a proponent of his work, but "stopping power" is clearly something he is a "believer" in. At least that's what his excerpt suggests.

BTW, you may have noticed I used the word "believer" (or variation) a lot when talking about ballistics. Ballistics is a very interesting subject matter because we don't quite know everything about it at this time. At least from a terminal perspective. We have pretty clear experiments showing one thing, and real world results showing another. Until we can hook up multiple, live human beings to sophisticated testing equipment, we can't truly know what happens in the moment of projectile impact on a human. So, take it for what its worth. I've seen multiple gunshot wounds in my time, and I'm going with the .45 whenever I can get it.

Reply

Marc November 11, 2011 at 5:02 am

I don't know what excerpt you read but here's a quote (among others in accordance) from his book "Gunshot Wounds", explicitly stating the exact opposite of what you think Dr. DiMaio believes:

"The 9 mm was considered by many American shooters as inferior to the .45 ACP. Studies by the military, a number of civilian government agencies as well as by private individuals have shown that this is incorrect; there is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9 mm and the .45 ACP cartridges."

It's generally agreed upon by all credible sources (those who got their Ph.D. in medicine and not in gunraggery, e.g. Dr. DiMaio, Dr. Fackler, Dr. Kneubuehl) on handgun effectiveness that there's no significant difference in the effectiveness of common duty calibers. As long as they penetrate deep enough the wounds are so alike that they can't be told apart, neither be the person shot nor by the person examining the wound in vivo or post mortem.

Reply

George November 10, 2011 at 9:12 pm

Plenty of anecdotal stories also backup how 45 ball ammo can sometimes stop them and sometimes not stop them too.

Look, here's an example, I read a blog post on Black Five about PDW use in Iraq. It was the usual ragging on how 9mm ball won't stop a mouse (I won't disagree — pistol ball ammo is well known to be a poor stopper) but then the blog entry goes to talk about how he bent the frame on his PDW — a Commander light weight — because an insurgent rushes at them, takes a magazine of ball ammo but is still wailing on one of his guys. The insurgent doesn't stop until he is beaten down with the LW Commander until the trigger guard bends on the weapon. Umm, do you see a double standard here? 7 rounds of 45 won't stop the guy yet 9mm ball ammo has problems? I don't doubt that 45 ACP has more of an edge over 9mm ball, but I think most of the ballistics experts don't think ball ammo does much.

Reply

crackedlenses November 10, 2011 at 12:56 pm

It's a bigger bullet; it should put a bigger hole in the target; both with work, it's just a matter of preference. It's the same as the .38 vs .357 Mag and 5.56 mm. vs 7.62 mm. debates…..

Reply

Marc November 11, 2011 at 5:08 am

The bullet is a whopping 0.1 inches bigger in diameter. There's no organ that reacts differently to a small hole than to a slightly bigger small hole. The chance to turn a >0.05" miss into an effective graze is insignificant. Facts aren't a matter of preference.

Reply

Marc November 11, 2011 at 5:09 am

should read "<0.05" miss" of course.

Reply

george November 10, 2011 at 9:16 pm

I wonder if all the hate on Beretta isn't just because it deposed the legendary 1911. I suspect the 226 would be having the same complaints now, and well, Sig's clearly aren't what they used to be.

Reply

Guest November 11, 2011 at 1:45 am

Stopping power may be a misnomer, but to take a target out of the fight means to render the target unconscious or otherwise incapable of any action. Head shots from a variety of calibers of a variety of loads may achieve very similar results and there is little denying that shot placement is important.

One way to render a target unconscious quickly and to otherwise remove the target from the fight requires a blow to the central nervous system (CNS). As mentioned a head shot can achieve this, but so can inducing a quick and massive blood loss or damaging the airways among other ways. It probably is not as quick as a head shot however.

A bigger bullet may cause more tissue damage and increase blood loss as there is more of it moving around to possibly strike a major vessel or fragment bone compared to a smaller bullet. Major deformation or fragmentation of the projectile is also important as well, to increase the "volume" of damage dealt to a target and to increase chances of increased bleeding and hitting something important such as but not limited to lungs, airway, major blood vessels (aorta, femoral, radial, carotid, celiac, etc), bones.

Reply

FormerSFMedic November 11, 2011 at 10:29 am

Marc, first of all, I could take the "gunraggery" comment as some kind of insult. But I won't. I assume its more of an attempt to say that the PHD's opinions weigh more than mine. I assure you, they do not. A PHD only gets you so far on this subject. Iam more than qualified to make comments on terminal ballistics. I probably have more experience in the field than most of those PHD's, not to mention, most of the top ballistics experts today have no such title. Don't let the title fool you, most of those PHD's were earned learning about things that have nothing to do with terminal ballistic effectiveness.

I was right and wrong about Dr. DiMaio. He is a modern combined ballistic method proponent, however he sides more with the Fackler doctrine. So, in a way, Dr. DiMaio does agree with my views to a certain point.

As far as the debate we have here. Dr. Fackler's findings and RII method have been proven wrong more times than not. The modern method of identifying terminal effectiveness is considered to be the "combined method". Almost every police department in the country has gone to this method for choosing duty ammo. Dr. Fackler and his "lab methods" are completely inconsistent with real world results, which is why LEO's have moved away from this kind of narrow minded thought process. The fact is, the street and battlefield have shown .45ACP to be more effective than 9mm. I have witnessed these real world findings myself.

Understand, that when dealing with FMJ, the performance of a projectile is going to be based primarily on caliber and penetration depth. However, there is no gaurentee that any FMJ will be effective unless placed in the vital zones of the body. Shot placement is key with FMJ. With HP ammo you have a completely different performance curve. But, in a military setting, .45 will trump 9mm. If you have any questions about my experiences or methods, or want to hear more, please let me know.

Reply

Marc November 13, 2011 at 3:30 am

"The fact is, the street and battlefield have shown .45ACP to be more effective than 9mm. I have witnessed these real world findings myself."

Can you back that up with more than a collection of anecdotes with questionable representativeness? Also the US Army's post-WW2 survey concluded the exact opposite.

Reply

crackedlenses November 11, 2011 at 12:44 pm

And I'm sure that all the extra grains are insignificant since the bullet is only a wee bit bigger; when I say "bigger", I am referring to the round as a whole. Yes, the bullet is only a bit bigger, but the amount of powder in the cartridge is increased, creating a projectile traveling at a higher speed…..

Reply

Marc November 13, 2011 at 9:02 am

What higher speed? .45 ACP is at the very low end of pistol caliber velocity. You're apparently missing the fact that .45 ACP operates at pathetically low pressure, negating any potential benefit of its large case capacity.

Reply

DrDave November 12, 2011 at 9:53 pm

I own a MK23 and adore it like my own child. It's completely ridiculous as a carry weapon, but as a pure object of desire, it has no equal (for me). The USP is only marginally less lovely. I have a wonderful video on my phone of my eleven year old son rapid firing seven rounds into the black at ten yards, with the MK23. It is my end of the world gun. Spare everything purchased with the gun; 5000+ rounds later and I haven't touched/broken anything. Yes, I paid nearly $2K for it, but I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.

Reply

irobj November 16, 2011 at 9:37 am

I owned a HK .40 USP Expert. It was a great gun: accurate, reliable, easy to control, etc. The main reason I got rid of it is a lack of aftermarket accessories that are available for my current carry gun – Glock 17.
It was hard to find a holster that didnt cost over $100 for the HK because it had the extended height sights to accomodate a suppressor. Mags were hard to find and expensive…etc. It became a safe queen.
There is no comparison between HK and Glock. But it's kind of like buying a Porsche vs. a Chevy. One you drive on the weekends, the other you do your work in…

I am interested in HK 45C, I think that one will be perfect.

Reply

ADAM BRYL January 1, 2012 at 1:27 pm

I have to say i respect all the opinions out there on caliber,whats best and what not. I am not a policeman, i have been shooting since i was 5. I have owned everything from 22 cal handguns to 44mags. I was a US Marine where i got to shoot alot of stuff. I think the bottomline is shoot what u want and are proficient with!!!Honestly, if the "shtf" at home, im not reaching for any of my handguns!!! my trusty winchester 1300 slug gun loaded with 00 buck shot is what im reaching for hoping that as soon as the bad guy hears me pump that gun, he is gonna crap himself and choose to leave!!!

Reply

JDN January 13, 2012 at 12:22 pm

Once many semi-auto. hand guns were tested (buried in mud, frozen, submerged in
salt water, etc, etc,) only HK and Glock didn't fail.
No wonder SEALs use them.

Reply

Firearm Tutorials January 25, 2012 at 1:39 pm

Good stuff. I like the .45 ACP because you can suppress it without using special ammo. Going with 9mm it's sometimes hard to find the 147+ grain stuff. It's a little more expensive to and by that time I might as well be shooting .45 anyways.

Reply

Dustoff177 January 31, 2012 at 7:08 pm

Almost got rid of my USP 45. What have been a big mistake. Great forum here. Fantastic reading.

Reply

grocerylist February 17, 2012 at 6:56 am

FYI the first polymer framed pistol was designed by H&K (H&K VP70), not Glock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_VP7

Reply

SWCCBOATGUY June 10, 2012 at 1:06 pm

I am a proud owner of the USP 45 and gave it my own little torture test along with a Glock 1st gen and Navy Sig 226's issued from our armory. The Sig is a fine weapon however, the magazines are substandard in operational environments/Team use. The Glock had adjustable sights. One very cold day in Kodiak while out on an op I went to brush the frozen salt water off, the screw portion of the sight broke and on the deck out the scuppers it went. Countless rounds, Maritime environments and the H&K still going strong. Have it on my hip as I write this. On time, On target never quit!!

Reply

Jon Bladefoot July 8, 2012 at 12:42 pm

Ive owned my USP .45 since 2000,My glock is a fine gun but the years and rounds have shown a clear winner.To such a degree that my best friend bought one-one with more way more use(mine 4000+)his and this is a guess (10,000)his ejection port is completely silver,no paint.Yet side by side(Laura Croft style)dumping 10 from each,I was totally dumbfounded as to which was which-identical!!!!
I find that my groupings are tighter and the confidence I feel when using it is from knowing it will do what I ask of it everytime.Yes it's expensive and accessories are like buying after market for a Ferrari-just open your wallet.But!!!If your going to go 220 mph.I rather do it in a Ferrari than a Fiat.
Yet its just my thoughts.It dosent mean im right.

Reply

Dr. Dan October 25, 2012 at 6:35 pm

I am an ER surgeon. 9mm bullets tend to zip through soft tissue and exit , thus much of the energy the bullet was carrying is lost. I have only seen a few .45 wounds and all were essentially deceased by the time we got them. I believe the sectional density of the bullet when you compare frontal area of the bullet obviously gives the larger bullet the advantage. If hollowpoints are considered it comes back to the same thing, was all of the energy transfered to the target ? Or was some lost because of excessive velocity and over penetration. This may seem odd but .22 LR is one of the most deadly, you can get hit in the arm and the bullet is so easily deflected, it can end up in your brain.

The guy in here that uses the shotgun wins, 12 , 30 caliber bullets fired at the same time at about 1200 fps almost garantees the bad guy won't see morning.

BTW, I carry a Glock 26, damn good gun, but I like my HK USP 45, the fact that it has a single action mode is what beats the Glock 21.

Remember , your handgun should only be used to fight your way back to your rifle.

Reply

WLCE October 25, 2012 at 9:58 pm

^this.

"Remember , your handgun should only be used to fight your way back to your rifle."

couldnt have said it better. unless you are using a 44 magnum or above, folks should be dubious about the effectiveness of their pistols. That is why shot placement is so critical and why, in the big picture, handguns generally suck.

The USP is a wonderful handgun! it is definitely over built and well worth the money.

Reply

Firearm Tutorials October 29, 2012 at 9:04 am

I love the USP! You can never go wrong with the .45 ACP. It's America's Hero.

Reply

wingding99 February 27, 2013 at 10:23 am

Isn't this simple physics M = mass x velocity. It's momentum that delivers the energy.

Reply

John September 27, 2013 at 9:16 am

Hi Brandon,

What do you think about compact vs standard full size? This will be the first gun I’ve ever owned. I’m going to buy the Smith and Wesson M&p .40. Is there really any concealment advantage and is there a trade off?

Reply

Sharon L. March 22, 2014 at 1:51 pm

I am a relatively new shooter, meaning I now have my own guns. My son had a USP .45 that I tried & fell in love with. I have long fingers & the grip fit me perfectly. This past Christmas my husband bought me that gun & I've been going to the range twice a week to shoot. I LOVE THIS GUN! I was concerned that I would have trouble taking it apart, cleaning it & putting it back together, but it's been very easy to do. It is too big a gun for me to conceal/carry. Even the compact version is too big for me to carry so I ended up buying a Kimber Ultra Carry with laser grips. I would have purchased another H&K in a heartbeat if there was one available in a .45 that was the same size as the Kimber.

Is there a conversion kit for the .45 USP to make it into a .22LR? The .22 ammo is more affordable for target shooting & as quickly as it can be changed out, I could still practice with both caliburs.

Reply

Leave a Comment

Previous post:

Next post: