A couple of points here. First, I don’t believe in ADs. Putting Accidental in front of Discharge is a complete misnomer. It’s possible to accidentally crack off the round, but I have a hard time imagining the circumstances. Putting Negligent in front of Discharge is much more appropriate. Believe me, I know.
Poor weapon handling: one distraction away, and that's with good training.
Next – I’m a Glock guy. This isn’t some sort of anti-Glock propaganda. I think if you’re going to treat your weapon like a classic car you get a 1911. If you’re going to treat it like a weedeater you sometimes leave it out in the rain, you get a Glock. There are other considerations, but those are mine.
Regardless of your preference in weapon, proper training is paramount. One thing I don’t like about CCW programs in many states are the testing procedures. Pretty much as long as you can persuade the bullets to exit the barrel and go in the general vicinity of the berm, you’re good to go. Maintaining that sort of proficiency level is just asking for trouble.
Don’t be That Guy (Weaponsman)
Negligent discharges can hurt innocents. Or they can reinforce to the gun operator that vigilance is necessary, and negligence is costly. This is one of the latter ones, and we can laugh about it because the guy’s going to live, although he’s going to be explaining an odd pair of matching scars to, er, intimate partners from here on out. Yeah, it wasn’t his foot he shot a hole in.
The Michigan HVAC worker was fiddling with his Glock on company time when he touched his Glock off and nearly shot his [rhyming obscenity] off. The round penetrated his procreative organ and exited the other side. Good thing he wasn’t loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs.
Read the entire story on WEAPONSMAN.
{ 25 comments… read them below or add one }
As a retired police officer I've seen my share of idiot discharges. Interestingly enough all have been with Glocks. Part of the cause is poor training while the others have been just plain P— poor handling.
Part of the poor training is departments that only qualify once or twice a year and many officers never practice outside of qualification time.
Yea, I carry a 1911:-)
To add insult to injury, I've known departments that said aside in-service days with ammunition laid by and instructors available as an optional training day where NO ONE showed up to shoot.
David- I hear the same from officers I know; I find that to be a sad thing. A lot of officers today see their sidearm as just more weight on their belt they have to carry.
It is a shame, because these are the officers who can't shoot worth a damn. Example:
A veteran officer from a busy department here in California got into a shooting with a suspect. He fired 8 rounds at the suspect and missed. The distance was 15 feet. These same people are the ones who's gun handling skills are marginally better than some of the best gang bangers.
David- I hear the same from officers I know; I find that to be a sad thing. A lot of officers today see their sidearm as just more weight on their belt they have to carry.
It is a shame, because these are the officers who can’t shoot worth a damn. Example:
A veteran officer from a busy department here in California got into a shooting with a suspect. He fired 8 rounds at the suspect and missed. The distance was 15 feet. These same people are the ones who’s gun handling skills are marginally better than some of the best gang bangers.
I don't like the term accidental or negligent. I prefer "unintentional". A person can have an unintentional discharge without meeting the criteria for the legal definition of the term negligent. LE agencies that have made the mistake of using the gun-writer coined term of "negligent dishcarge" have opened themselves up for all kinds of lawsuit woe.
As far as marksmanship requirements for a CCW, well, yes, I think it would be great if everyone were highly proficient with a sidearm. However, that's not going to happen. Passing with a minimum score is what is required, for those states with a requirement. Let me put it in other terms. Driver Licensing. We don't make everyone go to BSR and become perfect drivers. All you have to do is pass a simple driving test (you don't even have to speak English), and you are out operating a deadly vehicle. Automobile collisions have killed and injured far more in the US than CCW firearms. And, driving a car is not even Constituionally protected, like gun ownership is.
You bring up a couple of great points, Gene, particularly in the litigious and adversarial environment most LE agencies must operate within.
I have always told students that if your gun discharges when you didn't want it to, then that's a negligent discharge. There are VERY FEW instances where a gun discharges and it was not negligent. VERY FEW. If someone gets hurt, that is negligent. If we follow the "4 life safety rules" there shouldn't be people getting hurt. So obviously if someone does get hurt, that would be a negligent discharge.
- I do enjoy reading your posts! I agree. I've been shooting since I was five and sought and continued serious training from the early 80s. I've seen a few and fortunately none have been hurt. Probably the most predictable one is about once every ten years or so, one of my friends who are well-trained will have an ND at home dry-firing because of the mental **** when they finish, they don't tell themselves firmly "I am done dry-firing," reload, chamber, then try one more squeeze at the TV or wall. When I've instructed or assisted with classes, one of my main focuses (focii?) is the trigger guard. I've caught more of them than most instructors seem to. One mistake I've seen often is during speed reloads. When people bring the pistol in while dropping the magazine and inserting a fresh one, there is a tendency for a lot of people to use the muscles of the whole hand (like in milking the grip) and the finger goes right on the trigger (especially int-adv who are trying to do it as fast as they can). Check it out next time you guys watch a group. I've only once seen one with a revolver since you can see all the empty cylinders at once, but one friend of mine one night, dumped the rounds without using the ejector and one evidently stuck which left a nice .44 caliber hole in the wall (fortunately with concrete and dirt behind it). I've had mine once dry firing and had that brain fade – which changed my habits forever. I was aiming at a spot on the wall I knew had a dirt berm just beyond a fence outside. The wall was doubly reinforced and that .357Sig Gold Dot sailed through everything! My hair stood on end for days. Yes, it's even more embarrassing since I know darn well it was an ND.
Thanks Kat! I appreciate the kind words and thanks for sharing your experiences.
Safety is one of those things in operating a firearm that is universal. It can't be stressed enough and there is no compromise. Alot of people have that "yeah,yeah,yeah, I know" attitude toward safety. "I get it, guns are dangerous, lets get on with the training". What alot of shooters don't realize is that safety translates into better shooting fundamentals and tactics. A shooter can never progress to the highest applications of fundamentals unless he/she is absolutely confident and capable in their safety. So, we should think of safety as a way to keep ourselves and others safe as well as the fundamental foundation to becoming a great shooter.
I also wanted to take this time to say, I'm sorry Kat. You've expressed kind words toward me as well as made attempts to engage in conversation with me over the past few weeks over at our other favorite blogs. With that said, I have not given you the courtesy of answering your questions or responding back and I want to apologize for that. My mobile smartphone has trouble sometimes getting lost up at those other blogs
Well, there's a good example of a smartphone being stupid. Lol. Anyway.
Cont. from above – My smartphone has trouble getting POSTS (not lost) up on those "other blogs" and that combined with my ever increasing "optempo" during the summer makes it hard for me to find the time to respond and engage in long conversations. I wanted to let you know however, that I do read your posts everyday and I consider you a wonderful platform of information. I may not find the time to type up a response but I hear you everyday. I appreciate your dedication to bringing up good topics and spreading solid information. In the future, I will try and find the time to respond to you more often. I believe it's important for those in this community to stay in touch and learn everything can from each other. We can do more together than on our own.
Again, thanks Kat. If you have a way I can reach you, I will drop you my email address so we can "talk shop" and catch up on some of those posts of yours I didn't get to. Can't say it enough, thank you!
My gosh I didn't expect that. I assumed you are a busy man and you just made my week! Thank you so much! With the crowd who post is these places, if I try to make an informative post, I think pretty hard before I do it :) The email connected to this site happens to be my usual one or this one is good too (one word) kat girl 9999 (a t ) g m a i l pointe com.
…and I sincerely do appreciate the time you took to tap it out on a smartphone! You must be a very patient person!
The 4 rules. Exactly. I'm sure we've all seen the Youtube videos of someone conducting a rating of a particular firearm. Many of them are "trainers" or self-proclaimed "experts" (I use the term "shade-tree gun-expert"). Sometimes they will show that the pistol is cleared on the video, sometimes they won't. Then, they go to handling it, turning it around, pointing the barrel in their face, putting their hand in front of the muzzle. Now, I know some argue that if the gun has been cleared, that's not an issue. I disagree. Putting parts of your body in front of an "unloaded" weapon is stupid. Yes, I know, a live round is not going to magically materialize in the chamber. But, you are executing actions that are poor practice, and, you may do it with a live weapon. When I see this, it always gives me the willies.
You are not alone Gene. I feel the same way when I see these videos. That's why we stopped calling them "range safety rules" and starting calling them "life safety rules". These rules follow you everywhere you go. If you flag yourself in a video, that's inconsistency. We CANNOT get inconsistent with our safety.
You're talking discipline Medic and I agree with you 100%.
Those that think you can turn safety off at certain times are the same types that don't understand why the Spec Ops community often does things differently than the conventional side.
Once you've demonstrated the discipline to differentiate yourself you also have demonstrated the discipline to not cut corners when you shouldn't.
Serious case of meat palm right there!
btw – I've been helping with a web page for Dark Angel and would like to include the photo. Do you know what caliber etc that was? It looks like an exit wound maybe sweeping the support hand while drawing?
Had my first ever UD last week….shot in the dirt 5 feet low of a target…all was safe because of muzzle discipline…but man did I feel like ****. Learned the hard way that theirs good and bad about the short reset of the PPQ. I was trying to hard to make the most of it with a transition drill. still not a proud moment…but it happened. 35 yrs of shooting.
Just one more reason to support muzzle control at ALL times.
AD/ND/UD? There are legal court battles fought over the terminology, and people are financially ruined and/or go to jail for the answer they give in court. An Academy TO of mine says, "If you have to say anything about it, call it an UNINTENDED DISCHARGE. But your best play is not to mention it at all." This applies more to Cops than Soldiers. Both AD and ND are admissions of liability, and set you up for criminal and civil damages. UD removes intent. Chris
I hate to say it, but I don't think there should be any requirement to do any training to own a firearm to defend yourself, CCW or at home. Now this is a pure 2nd amendment argument. Now with that being said I believe everyone who owns firearms need to get training and practice, practice, Practice! But not required.
I was a Gunners Mate in the Navy and I remember when they changed the term from AD to Unintentional Discharge. Whatever you call it, it's bad and only happens from not following the "Life Safety Rules" and as usually it seems to happen to those that are a bit too comfortable with their weapon and get complacent. Now I’m an Air Force Security Forces member and I fully understand the need for clearing barrels on the instillations. I have seen M4’s get inspect by the operator and barrel inspector twice at two different barrels and still have a discharge in the armory, thankfully that one was a blank and did go off in the barrel as it should. I think the Air Force recently had a 240 or 249 go full auto because some dumb *** didn’t clear the last five or six round from the feed tray, no one noticed the small belt hanging out the side of weapon, he walked up to the clearing barrel and pulled the trigger to clear it. Because we know that how you do it! All the remaining rounds on the belt either went into the barrel or into the wall behind it, no one was hurt.
I’m all of us that have been around firearms for years have had similar experiences.
I agree whole-heartedly, what's worse, in my opinion, is when people make videos and their first line is, "Now this is all safe because the gun is unloaded and (Bob) {who is usually standing off to the side or behind the camera, not anywhere close enough to react} is a master with all weapons and has years/decades of expirience." Then the people go ahead and "review the 'gun'" or do insanely stupid and unsafe things, in one a guy shoots a 20-year-old who is wearing a WAY outdated IIA vest (every aspect being stupid vest or not). The round penetrated the vest completely but the kid was lucky and it had slowed enough to only give him a shallow wound and bruising instead of a nice neat (mm sized hole. My point is people think they are being safe when they are only endangering themselves, others, and encouraging awful weapons mauipulation/saftey training and more of these stupid incidents. Wow that was long-winded, just my 2 cents.
9mm – typo – computer – not a smartphone – my bad – sad.
In my time in the Australian Army, I noticed the guys who have UD/NDs are _ALWAYS_ the ones who keep their finger on the trigger, and _usually_ the ones who play with the safety. Seriously, if you don't want a gun to go ''bang'' keep the finger off the trigger, even during your reloads. Its the simplest thing in the world, but I noticed it was never taught as the basic rule of firearm safety. The trigger guard is there for a reason, and unless you are about to fire fingers do not belong in it. Sounds stupid, but as the saying goes ''if it's stupid, but works, it ain't stupid''.
Also, isn't the F88 trigger guard big enough to put your fist through?
Gun Safety is one of the biggest reasons of why Democrats and Liberals alike want to take our right to possess firearms. What that clause should include, would be our right to possess firearms, but only with the proper training and knowledge of the dangers of firearms. If you just merely treat a gun like it's an always-loaded weapon, this will never happen. Personally, being tactically trained and certified by Front Sight in Parump, Nevada is one of the best things I ever did, and I recommend their program to anybody interested in possessing a firearm merely for self-defense. 85% of Police Officers couldn't even pass the course. Showing just how horrible this issue has become. If individuals would just be safe with firearms, I wouldn't have to worry about mine being revoked from my Constitutional right as an American.