Shoot-out at the Tal Afar Corral

Submitted by Eric Daniel

Pistols are great.  There is simply no better way to describe them.  I think everyone ought to be issued one and it’s a shame that they aren’t.  Whether you’re searching a confined space such as a basement or closet, dealing with detainees, or simply want the security of knowing that if you ever experience a malfunction with your long gun, you can go to the pistol rather than fight your rifle and the bad guys at the same time.

Unfortunately, pistols don’t carry themselves.  You need to pack it around (in our case it was Glock-19s that we’d gotten from the Iraqi Police), and the easiest, most convenient way of doing that is with a holster.  For us, that meant either clipping the holster to our IBA, which meant you had to wear the IBA 24/7 if you needed to take your pistol anywhere or you needed to run the holster through your belt, which meant that you had this tumor on your hip where ever you went.

Hearkening back to my days of watching Adam-12, I opted to go the route of the police duty belt; I’d get a separate belt that could accommodate my holster, extra magazines, and what ever else I might want to sling, but since this belt wasn’t attached to either my armor or my pants, I could take it off when I didn’t need it.

My belt of choice was the Eagle Industries duty belt.  It was simple, straightforward, and easy to operate.  Made from nylon and velcro, it was neigh on indestructible.  My holster of choice was the Safariland Model 6004 tactical.  It too was simple, indestructible, and utterly reliable.

Buy the Eagle duty belt here
Buy the Safariland M6004 holster here

Comments

[Joe Evans]

Pistols are reall great to carry but most of the time the only one's who get them are officers who work in a TOC and don't even do combat missions. Most of the time it's because they are too lazy to carry a M16/M4 not because they need a back-up weapon. Give the pistols and let the fobits carry M16's and ride the bus.

[Pete Childress]

I carried a .45 in addition to my M-60 in Nam. Couldn't hit a barn door with the .45, but was mighty glad to have it as a back up.

[Mike]

Pistols have proved there worth over the years in many wars. Im sure someone in the military who 's weapon jammed at a crucial time and pulled his 45 killing his foe and saving his own life will tell you that when tshtf it's best to have backup.

[Hans Slobbe]

In my time, and that is long ago, we always carried rifle and pistol when active. And during alarm phases we carried the pistol. In my view it is quite silly to depend in war situations on only one firearm, any soldier should be able to defend himself or offend in more ways. The powers to be should invest in their people. period!

[Steve]

Pistols have their place as a backup for the long gun. Nobody with a brain would argue that point. But lets face it. Due to $$$$ no service is going to be willing to issue pistols to everybody assigned to combat units. Much less combat support or combat service support units. Imagine the cost of increasing a rifle companys T/O allowance of M9's from say 20 to 200. In a almost perfect world it would be nice if the individual service member would be authorized to carry a privately purchased M9. But even then the M882 Ball round doesnt work worth a crap when it comes to killing our enemies. It only works well when somebody has an ND and hits the unintended victim / good guy in the little toe killing him.

[Dick Salveson]

Peronaly I think that issuing pistols/revolvers to all land based combatents would be a cheap form of insurance, much less than rhe cost of life insurance pay outs, identification, cadaver transportation and funerals..

[Eric]

Cost isn't a factor for any weapon as the DoD already HAS more than enough weapons to supply 10 times the number of troops we have active and reserve. There are warehouses full of small arms from this and previous conflicts all across the country. The government still has thousands of 1911's and even .38 revolvers (Clinton tried, but didn't get them all destroyed) from WWII in storage. They could be pulled out, refurbished, and issued to REMF troops and the front line troops could get SIGs and Berettas. Or alternatively, they can surplus and sell the .45's and .38's to the public for a hefty price (WWII era 1911's are selling for $750-$1000 currently, the .38's would sell for $200 or so) to help ofset the purchase of new weapons for our soldiers. Selling a few thousand .45's at $600 each would provide enough with each sale to buy a top of the line 1911 on contract from one of today's manufacturers (Springfield, Kimber, Smith & Wesson, to name a few).
The collecting public would be satisfied, and the troops would be effectively armed with little outlay of taxpayer money.

[David W Evans]

Pass any and all 9mm's off on the REMFs. Put the 1911's back into the hands of the Combat Units.

[Chuck Walker]

We should be able to issue a sidearm. Congress and all the other higherups could take a minimal pay cut to help out our troops.If we don't issue them one ,then the service member should be able to carry anything they want they are proteceting themselves and our freedom.Semper Fi

[Ray Pollard]

Tell Congress that they need to stop trying to put bands on assault weapons, if not for the civilian market, gun manufactures would not have the money to develope newer weapons for our troop nor would they be able to stay in business, stop HR 1022.

[Steve H]

I remember a few years ago, Massad Ayoob recommended that all soldiers in a combat zone be issued a small, lightweight 9mm pistol like a Keltec P-11 or a Glock 26 to be carried in a special pocket on the uniform and only to be used in an emergency. These weapons are as easy to use and just as safe as a double action revolver.

11 rounds of 9mm ball is a lot better than being caught with nothing else that will shoot.

[Joseph Salomon]

Haveing served in WWII & Korea I have always had a side arm Colt cal.45 We moved
prisoners of war often. The side arm is the best back up
fire arm to quell an s.o.b,that wants to be a ball buster. Some guy 6'4"230lbs
when he hears the hammerclick
he becomes convinced your way
is the best way. Works every
time. Uncle Joe,

[Mike Barnes]

The right weapon for the job. Marines are legend with a long gun, but times and missions have changed. Even the bad guys have personal armour. Stack our 9mm & 223mm against that plus tight quarters and you spell disaster for our guys. I carried a .45 in addition to my modified 7.62mm M14. The 45 was used in searching hidey holes, while the M14 was used for long shots and chewing up cover to get to the bad guys. Its taken a lot of lives for our military to see that heavier calibers are needed.

The right weapons to get the job done right.

[Phil Griffith]

I tried to get the Army to allow my daughter to carry a side arm (Baretta 9mm) that i pirchased for her, when she ent to Iraq. I even offered to let the US Army keep it after she came home, so they could issue it to someone else. Would like to see them enact this process as I have another daughter and future son-in-law headed that way and would be willing to make the same offer for each.

[Ken Pimentel]

I'm willing to bet that the reason for troops not being allowed a pistol is that those in command are seriously afraid that those pistols will serve a different purpose in the hands of those troops that they do not have total faith in. Besides, it would mean that there would have to be more training for proper use and carry and that would take away from time on the battlefield. That's their view, not mine!

[Don]

I am a Nam vet. I spent a year primarily in the central highlands running convoys. Always had a 45 gov't or private in a cowboy hip holster. Also purchased a sawed off m-2 carbine back up under the seat good for close quarters and for protection in bunkers with no elbow room.

[Glenn Woods]

I remember my assigned weapon was a 38, as a Marine Helo pilot. My honest thought is that it would not stop anyone. If you go down in injun country I want a 22 w/hollow points and a silencer. I do not want to draw a crowd. The hollow woulld do a good job in the head.

[Former SSG]

If you have doubts about the .45 as a side arm read the story about MG William F. Dean who outdueled a machine gun with the .45 during Korea

[ingen]

I agree when I served I wondered why we didnt carry side arm weapons. You carry a rifle and a knife/bayonet but no intermediate weapon. The last guy is right they are trying to pinch pennies and then they pay out 400k for life insurance - stupid bean counters.

[Bob Janecek]

I believe that a secondary weapon in any combat situation is about as necesary as a helmet. Hopfully it would never be anything more then a few extra pounds to carry around and an added level of security but when you need it, you REALLY need it! I admit it would take some doing to issue every one a pistol but at least the soilder, Marine should have some say in their own personal protection and have the privilege of arming themselfs with one of many proven and reliable pistols of a comman caliber that they may already own or choose to purchase. God bless our Armed Forces!

[Dan Tillman]

All us "React Rangers" in the early days of 'Nam carried the old 1918A1 .45 slab in either a shoulder rig or a clip-on to our web. There was more than one occasion that I used the .45 to continue the fight when the M-14 ran out of ammo. (I had additional 20 round mags, just didn't have time to reload!)I think every grunt should be issued a light weight .40 cal short arm with a custom clip-on rig. No exceptions!!

[Dan Tillman]

Ok, OK! It was, of course a 1911A1 Colt .45 Pistol! Not a 1918A1 BAR!! (Short between the keyboard and the chair!)

[Nick]

Absolutley the best holster on the market in my opinion. I wore that same holster for over 3years and never had a problem with it!

[They call us guns for hire!]

With 3 tours in Iraq and 7 months in Afganistan I could not imagine not having a side arm. Independent contractors have that advantage, we can carry what we want. I carried my M-4, and Glock 23 and A Berreta Cougar as a hide out piece. I found that if you set your thigh rig up correctly you get used to it. You can not tactically contain or execute CQB operations without a side arm, I have seen Marine squads enter confined or spaces and if they had to squeeze one off it would have it one of the team. All front line operators should be issued side-arms. I as a retired officer still believe it's a cultural issue, "side arm must be an officer".

[Stephen R. Hendrickx]

While on guard duty at Cam Ranh Bay in '69, all I had was a .38. We had a jeep come around every half hour or so and they had an M-60 on it but in the meantim...well there was me and my .38, I wish I had more, after all they were close, closer than I cared to want them to be.

[Mike Lipscomb]

The HK MP10 and the EAA Witness 10MM make an unbeatable combination of carbine and pistol for the search & recovery teams. They utilize the same 10MM Ammo and have more destructive power than the 1911A1 mentioned in the remarks. The magsafe ammo will not recoshet
and harm unintended personell.

[Ryan Gray]

I agree that everyone who is going to be outside the wire in a combat zone like Afghanistan and Iraq should be issued a pistol. On my second tour in Fallujah I had Berretta 9mm to go with my M16A4 and my Benelli. Despite the fact I loathe using the Beretta 9mm, it was nice to have. If I had a choice I would prefer to have a .45 from Kimber or Springfield Armory. For a belt to keep up my drop holster, I used one made by " Blackhawk". One of the unfortunate things I noticed whenever I would get into the armory of the unit I was attatched to on my last tour was many of the pistols that could have been used by Marines going outside the wire, were utilized by SNCOs and officers that were not making the trips outside the wire and those pistols remained in the armory collecting dust. What a shame.

[S. Dawkins]

I carried an M16 and a Baretta in OIF. My opinion is you can never have too much guns or ammo. And if you get in the gunfight of your life you are going to be cursing yourself when you run out of ammo because you wanted to lighten the load.

[God Loves the Infantry]

I agree with Devil Dog Gray on his comment about staff section personnel getting issued weapons and associated equipment that they really dont need and a real grunt can use. Too many times I have seen non combat arms personnel walking around their base camps with M68's and PAQ's attached to their weapons and they havent outside the wire since they arrived at their respective locations. Than the grunts that make a living slinging rounds down range are either short the same equipment or are awaiting the arrival of equipment sent out for calibration or repair. The rear echelon that I love the most are the guys who put big old Deer hunting rifle scopes from Walmart on their M16's. The sad thing is that most of the staff personnel that are running around and altering their rifles and weapons are leaders who provide convoy escort details for other rear echelon. It's too late in the middle of a fire fight and one of your brothers have been shot in the face and your getting pelted with accurate small arms and RPG rounds to identify that the deer hunting scope wasnt such a great idea. If your down range serving on the frontier of freedom and democracy and you see one of your fellow service members walking around the base camp with their wepons configured all screwed up, take some time to correct him or her instead of making fun of them because that few seconds of identification and correction could save the lives of other personnel and or your own. Last thing before I sign off, for all of you guys who like to load your IBA up with all the crap that you dont need but looks cool, take a few minutes to self evaluate your combat load and see how far you can run at a full sprint with all of your Hollywood gear on and how long it might take you to take the appropriate cover to save your can. If at the end of your assesment you have a weird feeling in your gut that says your doing something wrong, than maybe you should cut down on your purchase orders from Ranger Joes. "Pack Light, 10th Mountain"

[Gerald Cohen]

In a down sleeping bag in Korea at 40 degrees below zero imagine having a M1 garand in with you. I used to sleep with a 45 in my hand and feel safer if I need to protect myself when we were infiltrated by the NK or chinese. Too many guys couldn't get out of the bag fast enough and have their M1 at ready.

[Brian]

I agree with several of the posters comments. Individuals should be allowed to carry personal sidearms as the majortiy of the usefull stuff seems to wind up with people who view it as a fashion accessory rather than a tool.
I took it a step further however. Told that there were not enough M-9's to issue my gunner one, I had him purchase one privately. I then put the rack numbered grips from my issue M-9 on his private Berretta and put an aftermarkedt set of grips on mine. Nobody who might have care ever even noticed.
I went a step further however. I purchase a H&K USP 45 from a contractor, spraypainted it flat black and carried it as well. The majority of the POGUE idiots who might have had a problem are so gun ignorant that I was able to JEDI mindtrick them. I carried the "illegal" weapon on every [atrol I had after I purchased it I walked through customs with it back to the States. It is in my nighstand now. I never fired it in combat, but nowing that if somebody every got through the turret I had 13round of 200grn JHP waiting before I had to go to the 9mm (also loaded w/contraband ammo) did wonder for my peace of mind. In a fight for YOUR life and the lives of your brothers, NOTHING is unfair. Anybody who says differently had never been in combat.

[Adam]

I was recently in Iraq, I was in Habbaniyah and Ramadi. I was on combined foot and vehicle patrols in Habbaniyah and I stopped carrying my pistol outside the wire. In Ramadi I was in and out of vehicles so much, it was just a burdon. I couldn't get out of the windows with a pistol on if need be, and it was cumbersome when jumping ditches, it slowed movement for me. I noticed I was adjusting it quite often. I had a concern if I needed to transition, but I figure, I test fire my weapon frequently, and I clean it often, I never doubted it would work. Furthermore, Instead of the weight from the pistol and the space the pouch used, I added more M16 mags. With the new flak jacket with side armor plates and front and rear, neck guard, and groin protector, I felt like a walking tank, and I prefer the lighter faster side. If my weapon jammed up, I figure it would have been a big fire fight, and someone would have been hit, I would just take their rifle in that event. I love pistols and CQB tactics, but in my overall experience, I would not carry my pistol outside the wire.

Sgt/USMC

[Noel]

I'd carry my personal S&W Sigma in .40 S&W and have my KelTech .380 stashed maybe in a cargo pocket in addition to a long arm. It would irk me to no end if superiors wouldn't allow a sidearm. I think maybe there's trust issues, they want to know you're unarmed when you don't have your long arm. It's a little bit politics too I think, because the haters have a bigger problem with pistols than rifles. Also it's comparable to the days of swords when it was symbolic for a noble/officer to have a sword, not the rabble/grunt.

[William]

I am soooooo tired of hearing the stories of guys who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with their issue .45. They must have been asleep during class. I ahve fired the issue .45 and unless you are a complete spastic moron, it is hard not to hit not to the broad side of a barn. Get real. If you can't put all seven in the door of the barn you should be in the rear with the gear.

[Pilkey]

Quit all the whining and debating... a sidearm is a MUST for anyone in a combat situation and there is a reason the 1911 has been around for almost a hundred years now... its simple.. it will fire every time and they must have gotten something right when they designed it 'cuz they havent changed it since they were first issued. Nothing else is safer to carry with a round in the hole.. remember, this is the gun that invented the phrase "cocked and locked" not to mention a standard 230 gr. ball round will drop damn near anything on the planet that has blood in its veins and breathes air. its my opinion that everyone should own at least one 1911 and take it with them everywhere they go... wether you're on your way outside the wire or on your way to wal-mart!

[andy]

I carried a 1911a1 when I was active and hit what I shot at. I loved that weapon so much I bought one wouldn't trade it for any other. They should have the right to carry a side arm with thier M4 if they choose. I khow I would

[R.Ramirez]

As an ex marine and now in the private sector,never doubt for a second not to carry a sidearm,either my 1911,or glock27 is a reality,stop the BS and issue sidearms to our forces,we contractors do,and is a fact between life and death...

[DONALD HEINKE, Sr.]

A GOOD INEXPENSIVE CENTERPOINT .40 SHOULD BE ISSUED TO ALL.

[Adam]

What is an ex marine?

[Mike]

I'd recommend a Springfield XD45 and a 19" 12ga. with lots of buck. Long range rifles are great for snipers, but if you're in a firefight, short stuff that makes a lot of holes at one time are the best.

[Steve]

It is great to hear all the stories about those who are standing up and serving our great country. I too have served in the Marine Corps and was one of those, as an officer, who was issued a 9mm pistol as my service weapon. As a motor transportation officer in an infantry battalion (2/2), while riding in a hummve, around Cape Hatian, Haiti for example back in 1994, I found my 9mm convienant and useful, however when available, I was happy to also carry the M16A2. I'm one of those who believe the more options the better, plus I did not stand out as much when also carrying a rifle. As a Marine at we're all trained rifleman no matter our rank.
Semper Fi and thanks to all of you still on active duty.
Steve (CAPT USMC)

[SGT T]

I wrote to Stars and Stripes about sidearms and how all who leave the wire should be issued or allowed a personal sidearm. A couple weeks later this fobbit CSM who only left the FOB in a helo gave me the a** chewing of a lifetime...he was just mad that I criticized the policy because his yelling about how wrong I was made no sense at all. Air Assault CSM!!! you really have your priorities straight.

[SGT T]

I have to disagree with a couple comments from "God Loves the Infantry" regarding civilian scopes on weapons. True most people with this setup are dillusional fobbits but not all. I was asssigned to a MITT team near Ballad and after trying and trying to get an ACOG or M68 or something I gave up and slapped on a 3x9 civilian scope. As the 240 gunner for my truck it was nice to be able to scan the area using whatever magnification I wanted. I called it my turret sniper rifle, although it did look kinda pogueish I didnt care, especially when my truck was just sitting still in front of 10000 windows, alleys, doors and other urban cover for snipers and RPG men. Also being on a small team, the risk of capture is high (and not an option) so I loaded up my IBA with lots of ammo and 203 rounds and it was definitly heavy but what was I gonna do, run deeper into enemy territory? A light load is OK sometimes but not when there's not much backup around. I do know what you mean, just remember every soldier has his own story and method to his madness.

[Msgt Us Army]

Im my entiretime served as Top, I NEVER would be concerned about a private weapon. I would not ever question as to why , that was a question that did not need to be asked.
In a fire fight at close quarters I always prefured my personal side arm, Rules were made to be questioned in the case of combat. In combat there are no rules, so here was our motto,"there are rules and then there is reality!"

"Delivering ALLAHS Will at 2600 feet per second!"

[Pete]

I drove a jeep alone all over Danang with just a 45 pistol in 1967 (day time only; at night I had company). I'd still like to know how I lost one damn magazine.

[Big John]

I think the military should leave it up to the soldier, especially NCOs whether to carry personal M9 or .45 in combat environ with hollowpoints etc....

[Austin Kennedy]

I have always felt that Combat Arms soldiers, regardless of branch of service, should be given the option of carrying a sidearm. The primary objections I can see is deciding on which calibers of sidearm the powers that be will approve of and devising some form of accountability for these weapons. If the DOD cannot fund purchasing sidearms as back-up weapons then they should allow thier carry and use providing they are of an approved caliber and they are properly controlled and accounted for. I am an Infantryman. I know how a weapon can jam during prolonged fire. When I pull the trigger and my weapon fails to fire its comforting to know I have a sidearm "just in case". Ultimately just saving ONE life....just ONE...makes the decision worthwhile. I would GLADLY augment my personal carry load and accept the peace of mind a sidearm would bring.

[Don B]

As a former Navy Officer & thereafter an Army JAG, then retired, I am a big fan of the govt 45. In my earlier law enforcement experience/corrections I carried a S&W Mod 10. With the 45, if I could see it I could hit it (out to 100 meters- but why would you be shooting a sidearm at a distant target?!in good condition it is a sufficiently accurate weapon) and put seven into the chest area at 30 yards with brass still in the air. But....I feel that a sidearm can be a distraction for the infantryman, and that total reliance/faith/skill should be focused on the infantryman's primary weapon.

[Al Moelter]

Check your MTO&E, the DoD dictates what weapons your unit is authorized and the NUMBER of pistols for issue. Everyone HAS to be armed, when DoD has only paid for 200 pistols, you don't get anymore. Rifles in the TOC are just as bad as in the building you are going into, and giving you TWO weapons means that someone else is not armed, think about it.

[EHLewis]

Air Force personnel were allowed to carry privately owned handguns in Viet Nam (I was told by my NCOIC in the 70's). He carried a .357. I personally think 9mm ball is too anemic. I carry Corbon 9mm +P hollowpoints, which are a good stopper in my 9's. I prefer my Glock 27 .40 loaded with Hydrashocks, as are my 3 1911 variants. .45 ball is not a greart stopper either, but better than 9mm if shot placement is accurate.