Shoot-out at the Tal Afar Corral

Submitted by Eric Daniel

Pistols are great.  There is simply no better way to describe them.  I think everyone ought to be issued one and it’s a shame that they aren’t.  Whether you’re searching a confined space such as a basement or closet, dealing with detainees, or simply want the security of knowing that if you ever experience a malfunction with your long gun, you can go to the pistol rather than fight your rifle and the bad guys at the same time.

Unfortunately, pistols don’t carry themselves.  You need to pack it around (in our case it was Glock-19s that we’d gotten from the Iraqi Police), and the easiest, most convenient way of doing that is with a holster.  For us, that meant either clipping the holster to our IBA, which meant you had to wear the IBA 24/7 if you needed to take your pistol anywhere or you needed to run the holster through your belt, which meant that you had this tumor on your hip where ever you went.

Hearkening back to my days of watching Adam-12, I opted to go the route of the police duty belt; I’d get a separate belt that could accommodate my holster, extra magazines, and what ever else I might want to sling, but since this belt wasn’t attached to either my armor or my pants, I could take it off when I didn’t need it.

My belt of choice was the Eagle Industries duty belt.  It was simple, straightforward, and easy to operate.  Made from nylon and velcro, it was neigh on indestructible.  My holster of choice was the Safariland Model 6004 tactical.  It too was simple, indestructible, and utterly reliable.

Buy the Eagle duty belt here
Buy the Safariland M6004 holster here

Comments

[Joe Evans]

Pistols are reall great to carry but most of the time the only one's who get them are officers who work in a TOC and don't even do combat missions. Most of the time it's because they are too lazy to carry a M16/M4 not because they need a back-up weapon. Give the pistols and let the fobits carry M16's and ride the bus.

[Pete Childress]

I carried a .45 in addition to my M-60 in Nam. Couldn't hit a barn door with the .45, but was mighty glad to have it as a back up.

[Mike]

Pistols have proved there worth over the years in many wars. Im sure someone in the military who 's weapon jammed at a crucial time and pulled his 45 killing his foe and saving his own life will tell you that when tshtf it's best to have backup.

[Hans Slobbe]

In my time, and that is long ago, we always carried rifle and pistol when active. And during alarm phases we carried the pistol. In my view it is quite silly to depend in war situations on only one firearm, any soldier should be able to defend himself or offend in more ways. The powers to be should invest in their people. period!

[Steve]

Pistols have their place as a backup for the long gun. Nobody with a brain would argue that point. But lets face it. Due to $$$$ no service is going to be willing to issue pistols to everybody assigned to combat units. Much less combat support or combat service support units. Imagine the cost of increasing a rifle companys T/O allowance of M9's from say 20 to 200. In a almost perfect world it would be nice if the individual service member would be authorized to carry a privately purchased M9. But even then the M882 Ball round doesnt work worth a crap when it comes to killing our enemies. It only works well when somebody has an ND and hits the unintended victim / good guy in the little toe killing him.

[Dick Salveson]

Peronaly I think that issuing pistols/revolvers to all land based combatents would be a cheap form of insurance, much less than rhe cost of life insurance pay outs, identification, cadaver transportation and funerals..

[Eric]

Cost isn't a factor for any weapon as the DoD already HAS more than enough weapons to supply 10 times the number of troops we have active and reserve. There are warehouses full of small arms from this and previous conflicts all across the country. The government still has thousands of 1911's and even .38 revolvers (Clinton tried, but didn't get them all destroyed) from WWII in storage. They could be pulled out, refurbished, and issued to REMF troops and the front line troops could get SIGs and Berettas. Or alternatively, they can surplus and sell the .45's and .38's to the public for a hefty price (WWII era 1911's are selling for $750-$1000 currently, the .38's would sell for $200 or so) to help ofset the purchase of new weapons for our soldiers. Selling a few thousand .45's at $600 each would provide enough with each sale to buy a top of the line 1911 on contract from one of today's manufacturers (Springfield, Kimber, Smith & Wesson, to name a few).
The collecting public would be satisfied, and the troops would be effectively armed with little outlay of taxpayer money.

[David W Evans]

Pass any and all 9mm's off on the REMFs. Put the 1911's back into the hands of the Combat Units.

[Chuck Walker]

We should be able to issue a sidearm. Congress and all the other higherups could take a minimal pay cut to help out our troops.If we don't issue them one ,then the service member should be able to carry anything they want they are proteceting themselves and our freedom.Semper Fi

[Ray Pollard]

Tell Congress that they need to stop trying to put bands on assault weapons, if not for the civilian market, gun manufactures would not have the money to develope newer weapons for our troop nor would they be able to stay in business, stop HR 1022.

[Steve H]

I remember a few years ago, Massad Ayoob recommended that all soldiers in a combat zone be issued a small, lightweight 9mm pistol like a Keltec P-11 or a Glock 26 to be carried in a special pocket on the uniform and only to be used in an emergency. These weapons are as easy to use and just as safe as a double action revolver.

11 rounds of 9mm ball is a lot better than being caught with nothing else that will shoot.

[Joseph Salomon]

Haveing served in WWII & Korea I have always had a side arm Colt cal.45 We moved
prisoners of war often. The side arm is the best back up
fire arm to quell an s.o.b,that wants to be a ball buster. Some guy 6'4"230lbs
when he hears the hammerclick
he becomes convinced your way
is the best way. Works every
time. Uncle Joe,

[Mike Barnes]

The right weapon for the job. Marines are legend with a long gun, but times and missions have changed. Even the bad guys have personal armour. Stack our 9mm & 223mm against that plus tight quarters and you spell disaster for our guys. I carried a .45 in addition to my modified 7.62mm M14. The 45 was used in searching hidey holes, while the M14 was used for long shots and chewing up cover to get to the bad guys. Its taken a lot of lives for our military to see that heavier calibers are needed.

The right weapons to get the job done right.

[Phil Griffith]

I tried to get the Army to allow my daughter to carry a side arm (Baretta 9mm) that i pirchased for her, when she ent to Iraq. I even offered to let the US Army keep it after she came home, so they could issue it to someone else. Would like to see them enact this process as I have another daughter and future son-in-law headed that way and would be willing to make the same offer for each.

[Ken Pimentel]

I'm willing to bet that the reason for troops not being allowed a pistol is that those in command are seriously afraid that those pistols will serve a different purpose in the hands of those troops that they do not have total faith in. Besides, it would mean that there would have to be more training for proper use and carry and that would take away from time on the battlefield. That's their view, not mine!

[Don]

I am a Nam vet. I spent a year primarily in the central highlands running convoys. Always had a 45 gov't or private in a cowboy hip holster. Also purchased a sawed off m-2 carbine back up under the seat good for close quarters and for protection in bunkers with no elbow room.

[Glenn Woods]

I remember my assigned weapon was a 38, as a Marine Helo pilot. My honest thought is that it would not stop anyone. If you go down in injun country I want a 22 w/hollow points and a silencer. I do not want to draw a crowd. The hollow woulld do a good job in the head.

[Former SSG]

If you have doubts about the .45 as a side arm read the story about MG William F. Dean who outdueled a machine gun with the .45 during Korea

[ingen]

I agree when I served I wondered why we didnt carry side arm weapons. You carry a rifle and a knife/bayonet but no intermediate weapon. The last guy is right they are trying to pinch pennies and then they pay out 400k for life insurance - stupid bean counters.

[Bob Janecek]

I believe that a secondary weapon in any combat situation is about as necesary as a helmet. Hopfully it would never be anything more then a few extra pounds to carry around and an added level of security but when you need it, you REALLY need it! I admit it would take some doing to issue every one a pistol but at least the soilder, Marine should have some say in their own personal protection and have the privilege of arming themselfs with one of many proven and reliable pistols of a comman caliber that they may already own or choose to purchase. God bless our Armed Forces!

[Dan Tillman]

All us "React Rangers" in the early days of 'Nam carried the old 1918A1 .45 slab in either a shoulder rig or a clip-on to our web. There was more than one occasion that I used the .45 to continue the fight when the M-14 ran out of ammo. (I had additional 20 round mags, just didn't have time to reload!)I think every grunt should be issued a light weight .40 cal short arm with a custom clip-on rig. No exceptions!!

[Dan Tillman]

Ok, OK! It was, of course a 1911A1 Colt .45 Pistol! Not a 1918A1 BAR!! (Short between the keyboard and the chair!)

[Nick]

Absolutley the best holster on the market in my opinion. I wore that same holster for over 3years and never had a problem with it!

[They call us guns for hire!]

With 3 tours in Iraq and 7 months in Afganistan I could not imagine not having a side arm. Independent contractors have that advantage, we can carry what we want. I carried my M-4, and Glock 23 and A Berreta Cougar as a hide out piece. I found that if you set your thigh rig up correctly you get used to it. You can not tactically contain or execute CQB operations without a side arm, I have seen Marine squads enter confined or spaces and if they had to squeeze one off it would have it one of the team. All front line operators should be issued side-arms. I as a retired officer still believe it's a cultural issue, "side arm must be an officer".

[Stephen R. Hendrickx]

While on guard duty at Cam Ranh Bay in '69, all I had was a .38. We had a jeep come around every half hour or so and they had an M-60 on it but in the meantim...well there was me and my .38, I wish I had more, after all they were close, closer than I cared to want them to be.

[Mike Lipscomb]

The HK MP10 and the EAA Witness 10MM make an unbeatable combination of carbine and pistol for the search & recovery teams. They utilize the same 10MM Ammo and have more destructive power than the 1911A1 mentioned in the remarks. The magsafe ammo will not recoshet
and harm unintended personell.

[Ryan Gray]

I agree that everyone who is going to be outside the wire in a combat zone like Afghanistan and Iraq should be issued a pistol. On my second tour in Fallujah I had Berretta 9mm to go with my M16A4 and my Benelli. Despite the fact I loathe using the Beretta 9mm, it was nice to have. If I had a choice I would prefer to have a .45 from Kimber or Springfield Armory. For a belt to keep up my drop holster, I used one made by " Blackhawk". One of the unfortunate things I noticed whenever I would get into the armory of the unit I was attatched to on my last tour was many of the pistols that could have been used by Marines going outside the wire, were utilized by SNCOs and officers that were not making the trips outside the wire and those pistols remained in the armory collecting dust. What a shame.

[S. Dawkins]

I carried an M16 and a Baretta in OIF. My opinion is you can never have too much guns or ammo. And if you get in the gunfight of your life you are going to be cursing yourself when you run out of ammo because you wanted to lighten the load.

[God Loves the Infantry]

I agree with Devil Dog Gray on his comment about staff section personnel getting issued weapons and associated equipment that they really dont need and a real grunt can use. Too many times I have seen non combat arms personnel walking around their base camps with M68's and PAQ's attached to their weapons and they havent outside the wire since they arrived at their respective locations. Than the grunts that make a living slinging rounds down range are either short the same equipment or are awaiting the arrival of equipment sent out for calibration or repair. The rear echelon that I love the most are the guys who put big old Deer hunting rifle scopes from Walmart on their M16's. The sad thing is that most of the staff personnel that are running around and altering their rifles and weapons are leaders who provide convoy escort details for other rear echelon. It's too late in the middle of a fire fight and one of your brothers have been shot in the face and your getting pelted with accurate small arms and RPG rounds to identify that the deer hunting scope wasnt such a great idea. If your down range serving on the frontier of freedom and democracy and you see one of your fellow service members walking around the base camp with their wepons configured all screwed up, take some time to correct him or her instead of making fun of them because that few seconds of identification and correction could save the lives of other personnel and or your own. Last thing before I sign off, for all of you guys who like to load your IBA up with all the crap that you dont need but looks cool, take a few minutes to self evaluate your combat load and see how far you can run at a full sprint with all of your Hollywood gear on and how long it might take you to take the appropriate cover to save your can. If at the end of your assesment you have a weird feeling in your gut that says your doing something wrong, than maybe you should cut down on your purchase orders from Ranger Joes. "Pack Light, 10th Mountain"

[Gerald Cohen]

In a down sleeping bag in Korea at 40 degrees below zero imagine having a M1 garand in with you. I used to sleep with a 45 in my hand and feel safer if I need to protect myself when we were infiltrated by the NK or chinese. Too many guys couldn't get out of the bag fast enough and have their M1 at ready.

[Brian]

I agree with several of the posters comments. Individuals should be allowed to carry personal sidearms as the majortiy of the usefull stuff seems to wind up with people who view it as a fashion accessory rather than a tool.
I took it a step further however. Told that there were not enough M-9's to issue my gunner one, I had him purchase one privately. I then put the rack numbered grips from my issue M-9 on his private Berretta and put an aftermarkedt set of grips on mine. Nobody who might have care ever even noticed.
I went a step further however. I purchase a H&K USP 45 from a contractor, spraypainted it flat black and carried it as well. The majority of the POGUE idiots who might have had a problem are so gun ignorant that I was able to JEDI mindtrick them. I carried the "illegal" weapon on every [atrol I had after I purchased it I walked through customs with it back to the States. It is in my nighstand now. I never fired it in combat, but nowing that if somebody every got through the turret I had 13round of 200grn JHP waiting before I had to go to the 9mm (also loaded w/contraband ammo) did wonder for my peace of mind. In a fight for YOUR life and the lives of your brothers, NOTHING is unfair. Anybody who says differently had never been in combat.

[Adam]

I was recently in Iraq, I was in Habbaniyah and Ramadi. I was on combined foot and vehicle patrols in Habbaniyah and I stopped carrying my pistol outside the wire. In Ramadi I was in and out of vehicles so much, it was just a burdon. I couldn't get out of the windows with a pistol on if need be, and it was cumbersome when jumping ditches, it slowed movement for me. I noticed I was adjusting it quite often. I had a concern if I needed to transition, but I figure, I test fire my weapon frequently, and I clean it often, I never doubted it would work. Furthermore, Instead of the weight from the pistol and the space the pouch used, I added more M16 mags. With the new flak jacket with side armor plates and front and rear, neck guard, and groin protector, I felt like a walking tank, and I prefer the lighter faster side. If my weapon jammed up, I figure it would have been a big fire fight, and someone would have been hit, I would just take their rifle in that event. I love pistols and CQB tactics, but in my overall experience, I would not carry my pistol outside the wire.

Sgt/USMC

[Noel]

I'd carry my personal S&W Sigma in .40 S&W and have my KelTech .380 stashed maybe in a cargo pocket in addition to a long arm. It would irk me to no end if superiors wouldn't allow a sidearm. I think maybe there's trust issues, they want to know you're unarmed when you don't have your long arm. It's a little bit politics too I think, because the haters have a bigger problem with pistols than rifles. Also it's comparable to the days of swords when it was symbolic for a noble/officer to have a sword, not the rabble/grunt.

[William]

I am soooooo tired of hearing the stories of guys who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with their issue .45. They must have been asleep during class. I ahve fired the issue .45 and unless you are a complete spastic moron, it is hard not to hit not to the broad side of a barn. Get real. If you can't put all seven in the door of the barn you should be in the rear with the gear.

[Pilkey]

Quit all the whining and debating... a sidearm is a MUST for anyone in a combat situation and there is a reason the 1911 has been around for almost a hundred years now... its simple.. it will fire every time and they must have gotten something right when they designed it 'cuz they havent changed it since they were first issued. Nothing else is safer to carry with a round in the hole.. remember, this is the gun that invented the phrase "cocked and locked" not to mention a standard 230 gr. ball round will drop damn near anything on the planet that has blood in its veins and breathes air. its my opinion that everyone should own at least one 1911 and take it with them everywhere they go... wether you're on your way outside the wire or on your way to wal-mart!

[andy]

I carried a 1911a1 when I was active and hit what I shot at. I loved that weapon so much I bought one wouldn't trade it for any other. They should have the right to carry a side arm with thier M4 if they choose. I khow I would

[R.Ramirez]

As an ex marine and now in the private sector,never doubt for a second not to carry a sidearm,either my 1911,or glock27 is a reality,stop the BS and issue sidearms to our forces,we contractors do,and is a fact between life and death...

[DONALD HEINKE, Sr.]

A GOOD INEXPENSIVE CENTERPOINT .40 SHOULD BE ISSUED TO ALL.

[Adam]

What is an ex marine?

[Mike]

I'd recommend a Springfield XD45 and a 19" 12ga. with lots of buck. Long range rifles are great for snipers, but if you're in a firefight, short stuff that makes a lot of holes at one time are the best.

[Steve]

It is great to hear all the stories about those who are standing up and serving our great country. I too have served in the Marine Corps and was one of those, as an officer, who was issued a 9mm pistol as my service weapon. As a motor transportation officer in an infantry battalion (2/2), while riding in a hummve, around Cape Hatian, Haiti for example back in 1994, I found my 9mm convienant and useful, however when available, I was happy to also carry the M16A2. I'm one of those who believe the more options the better, plus I did not stand out as much when also carrying a rifle. As a Marine at we're all trained rifleman no matter our rank.
Semper Fi and thanks to all of you still on active duty.
Steve (CAPT USMC)

[SGT T]

I wrote to Stars and Stripes about sidearms and how all who leave the wire should be issued or allowed a personal sidearm. A couple weeks later this fobbit CSM who only left the FOB in a helo gave me the a** chewing of a lifetime...he was just mad that I criticized the policy because his yelling about how wrong I was made no sense at all. Air Assault CSM!!! you really have your priorities straight.

[SGT T]

I have to disagree with a couple comments from "God Loves the Infantry" regarding civilian scopes on weapons. True most people with this setup are dillusional fobbits but not all. I was asssigned to a MITT team near Ballad and after trying and trying to get an ACOG or M68 or something I gave up and slapped on a 3x9 civilian scope. As the 240 gunner for my truck it was nice to be able to scan the area using whatever magnification I wanted. I called it my turret sniper rifle, although it did look kinda pogueish I didnt care, especially when my truck was just sitting still in front of 10000 windows, alleys, doors and other urban cover for snipers and RPG men. Also being on a small team, the risk of capture is high (and not an option) so I loaded up my IBA with lots of ammo and 203 rounds and it was definitly heavy but what was I gonna do, run deeper into enemy territory? A light load is OK sometimes but not when there's not much backup around. I do know what you mean, just remember every soldier has his own story and method to his madness.

[Msgt Us Army]

Im my entiretime served as Top, I NEVER would be concerned about a private weapon. I would not ever question as to why , that was a question that did not need to be asked.
In a fire fight at close quarters I always prefured my personal side arm, Rules were made to be questioned in the case of combat. In combat there are no rules, so here was our motto,"there are rules and then there is reality!"

"Delivering ALLAHS Will at 2600 feet per second!"

[Pete]

I drove a jeep alone all over Danang with just a 45 pistol in 1967 (day time only; at night I had company). I'd still like to know how I lost one damn magazine.

[Big John]

I think the military should leave it up to the soldier, especially NCOs whether to carry personal M9 or .45 in combat environ with hollowpoints etc....

[Austin Kennedy]

I have always felt that Combat Arms soldiers, regardless of branch of service, should be given the option of carrying a sidearm. The primary objections I can see is deciding on which calibers of sidearm the powers that be will approve of and devising some form of accountability for these weapons. If the DOD cannot fund purchasing sidearms as back-up weapons then they should allow thier carry and use providing they are of an approved caliber and they are properly controlled and accounted for. I am an Infantryman. I know how a weapon can jam during prolonged fire. When I pull the trigger and my weapon fails to fire its comforting to know I have a sidearm "just in case". Ultimately just saving ONE life....just ONE...makes the decision worthwhile. I would GLADLY augment my personal carry load and accept the peace of mind a sidearm would bring.

[Don B]

As a former Navy Officer & thereafter an Army JAG, then retired, I am a big fan of the govt 45. In my earlier law enforcement experience/corrections I carried a S&W Mod 10. With the 45, if I could see it I could hit it (out to 100 meters- but why would you be shooting a sidearm at a distant target?!in good condition it is a sufficiently accurate weapon) and put seven into the chest area at 30 yards with brass still in the air. But....I feel that a sidearm can be a distraction for the infantryman, and that total reliance/faith/skill should be focused on the infantryman's primary weapon.

[Al Moelter]

Check your MTO&E, the DoD dictates what weapons your unit is authorized and the NUMBER of pistols for issue. Everyone HAS to be armed, when DoD has only paid for 200 pistols, you don't get anymore. Rifles in the TOC are just as bad as in the building you are going into, and giving you TWO weapons means that someone else is not armed, think about it.

[EHLewis]

Air Force personnel were allowed to carry privately owned handguns in Viet Nam (I was told by my NCOIC in the 70's). He carried a .357. I personally think 9mm ball is too anemic. I carry Corbon 9mm +P hollowpoints, which are a good stopper in my 9's. I prefer my Glock 27 .40 loaded with Hydrashocks, as are my 3 1911 variants. .45 ball is not a greart stopper either, but better than 9mm if shot placement is accurate.

[Riley Nelson]

The reason that has always been given to me that the Army doesn't issue us infantry types back up small arms is that historically, pistols and gernades (in that order) are the 1st and second most likely weapons to be involved in fratricide. It is true that having a back up weapon could save your life, but statistically you are more likely to be shot and killed accidentally by your buddy carrying a spare pistol then have your own life saved by one. Its sad but true.

[Michael J. Roberts]

Army pilot in Vietnam, I was issued the .38. Used it as a bedside gun in the hooch. I went to a police advisor and traded for a 1911 for mission carry, and a M3 "Greasegun". Unscrew the barrel and it would nicely fit in the GI issue black briefcase, along with two mags and two smoke genades. As the piaster agent my jeep travel took me into strange places, always with my briefcase.

[Jeff]

I can't agree more about carrying a second fire arm. During my tour in Iraq, my platoon was ambushed by nearly 100 insurgents. During the fighting, an armor piercing round went through my M4. At the exact time an RPG struck the side of my STRYKER vehicle. Originally I thought a piece of shrapnel had struck my hand. But immediately I noticed that my M4 would not fire and reload. I was forced to reload my weapon by pulling the charging handle back each time. That was a very difficult task missing nearly a third of my finger. It would have been nice to have had a side-arm to carry. I understand the Army has funding issues in some cases, but I have read some very convincing comments here that have merrit. Yes, you could sell off some of the older weapons and use the money to purchase new ones. Or the military could allow soldiers to carry a personal side-arm if they own one. Now that doesn't mean a .50 cal. desert eagle. But I myself have a 9mm and and Glock 31, 357. Our guys did it in WWII and Vietnam, why not now? If the weapon meets the criteria set forth by NATO, then whats the problem? One more question, how did the originator of this message aguire the Glocks from the Iraqi police? I was in Iraq when the IP where issued these weapons. They were bought and paid for by the U.S. Army and then given to the IP who had to sign and pay for them as part of an agreement with the U.S. Good job if you were able to keep it. We tried repeatedly to get them from the IP. Mostly because who wouldn't want a new Glock, especially since the IP felt the weapon was a piece of junk. They didn't like how it was made of plastic "in their words." It was too light and seemed like a toy.

[Ralph A. Mullins]

I carried a .45 and M79 in "nam. Since I retired I carry a sidearm (I have a license) at all times. Never used a sidarm against anyone, ever, and may never have to, but I've always been happy to be prepared. Issue all warfighters a sidearm!

[CDR Christie]

Depending on the area, I either carry my (personally purchased & maintained) Kimber .45 Where friendlies have the .45), Beretta 9mm (exactly like standard issue - but I treat mine better), or flat-black Browning Hi-Power 9mm (when I need to blend in to the locals). In all cases, the PPK and hollow-point +P's (one mag in the gun + 2 weak-side) are in a concealment holster, and the Gerber Guardian is also readily available but out of sight. Every citizen "should" know how to shoot a handgun, and be mentally prepared to do so, if they choose to (or are sent to) go into harms way.

[ricky1121]

I,m a medic so I can carry an M-9 and a M-4, but what i would rather carry is my XD-45or even my 1911. Ive been told I can take them to the sandbox when I go, but won't be allowed to bring them back because of regulations. I shoot expert with both and the M-9 as well but I love that big bullet

[Maj Chaos]

The real cost is not in the hardware, it's in the time and effort it would take to train a huge number of pistol operators to any reasonable standard of safety and accuracy. You can't just hand the things out and expect good things to happen. We've all seen the videos of cops firing hundreds of rounds, at close range, and doing little more than property damage... and they train all the time with the pistol.

Incidentally, personally owned firearms are prohibited in Iraq, so that's not even an option...

[Gomez]

I did some reserve time in February flying OEF missions, and was quite surprised to see lots of young army troops all with 2 weapons each, 9MM Baretta and M-16 variants.

[Russ Jordan]

I would like to hear someone who knows tell me why in all the years they have made weapons. They have not either made the barrel and/or stock shorter or removable. And yes I know about the folding stock. And I know accuracy but in how many fire fights does one need to hit a target at 300 yards?

[Jim Berry]

Bad info! I was in Viet-Nam in 69 as an AF Sgt., we were NOT allowed any personal firearms, nor knifes with a blade over 3"! Locker inspections were conducted, and anyone found in posession of either of these would find themself in front of a Court Martial.

[Allonsac]

As Veit Nam vet and Gunsmith by trade,I bought several inexpenceive 22LR autos for the Guys in our local National Gaurd unit whin it was deployed to Iraq last year.
I reworked each of the wepons to make sure they would funtion whith all types of ammo, and gave them to several of the guys that had been in my sons Boy Scout troop. It ws only a little insureance but it made them feel safer to know that they had some back up if it was needed.
They all have returned safely. One of the Guy stoped by andthanked me agin and returned one of the Autos, he was Told by his lst Sgt to return it as he was only 19 and can not have a hand gun.

[Jeff]

I just returned from Iraq in December and all our teams (US Army officers, warrant officers, and enlisted) carried the M-9 in the Blackhawk Serpa drop-leg holster and either an M-16 or an M-4. Most of us had the holster on a "duty" belt and I even purchased a second Serpa holster to mount on my IBA for easy access when riding in Blackhawk helos.

With close to 50 pounds of Interceptor Body Armor (with Small Arms Protective Inserts front and rear), helmet, rifle, and a pistol you definitely have more confidence in your survivability than our past brothers in arms had.

Remember, it is not the budget dollars that keep us from getting more equipment, it is the false political-speak of the liberal left attacking the present administration in any way they can including using the troops for their own political gain.

[Mark L Roberts Sr.]

I was next in line to go to Desert Storm, I was prepared to bring a Berreta with me and if I had to leave it there I think it would have been a small price to pay if it let me return home. Retired WO2.

[John]

What exactly is the reg that doesn't let you bring back personally owned sidearms from Iraq?

[Evan Cowart]

Having spent a bit of time in Vietnam during Tet 68 as a REMF I would have loved to have had a nice simple P-220, no buttons or levers to play with, pull it, use it.

Truly loved being an unarmed target for charlie, fortunately the need never arose so I get to complain and mumble about it to this day.

Question, do all you snake eaters make your own beans and bullets? How do you think those nifty Cobra gun ships showed up in Vietnam, I helped off load them off of our USAF cargo aircraft at Tan Son Nhut in 67, just in time to watch them in action outside the front gate in 68, great show.

SMSgt Evan Cowart
USAF Retired

[Plem-Dawg]

General Order Number one for theater prevents you from carrying personal weapons along with a whole lot of other stuff.

My experience from when I was over is that you can get it in country no problem but you have to clear customs coming home. With a little bit of creativity that is possible too.

Regardless $500-$600 for a 92FS or M9 (whatever you want to call it) is a small price to pay for piece of mind. Besides, you can always pass it off to a fellow service member on your way out and maybe even make a couple bucks back.

Bottom line, a side arm should be available for those that need it.

[Ron Whit]

I do not believe half of you on here. You talk the talk but probably never walked the walk. POW TWO Years KOREA,VIETNAM VET,DESERT STORM VET, DISABLED VET

[Evan Cowart]

Ron,

That is a stretch, didn't think they let people play in the sand box that were that old. Could be guard or reserve, but that is still a stretch.

Evan

[ronald compton]

I totally agree with all our troops having an appropriate sidearm. I served a full tour (plus a bunch of extra months) in Vietnam in 1970-1972 at Bien Hoa AB. I was an AF officer, but was issued an M16 and/or a .38 Smith & Wesson only when I left the confines of the base. In order to sleep better at night, I acquired and practiced-fired (often) a CHICOM AK-47. Quite an impressive, but very simple weapon. On convoys between Bien Hoa and all my FOLs throughout III and IV Corps, we usually had an M-60 on both the lead and trailing jeeps. I am extremely proud of all our wonderful troops in every Service, but will be so glad when they all return home. Fly High!

[Dan]

The fact that the military won't issue / let us carry larger caliber weapons makes me sick.
I was in the '04 battle of Fallujah & saw a lot of CQB.
The 9mm ball ammo & 5.56 M16/M4 rounds have no stopping power. And, it takes a lot of "convincing" to bring down a drugged up insurgent with 9mm / 5.56

I personally think, if the military is too cheap to buy decent ammo & larger caliber weapons, we should be allowed to bring our own.

I would love to put my Kimber 1911 to use with some nice hydrashock's in it!

[ALF]

RELITY SETS IN WHEN YOUR IN A LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION WETHER YOUR GONNA COME OUT OF IT. THE TRUTH HITS HOME ESPECIALLY IN CLOSE QUARTER COMBAT WHERE THERE ARE ONLY TWO WAYS OUT A SECONDARY BACK UP FIREARM SMALL ENOUGH TO BE USED AND HANDLED OR A FULL OUT BRAWL. PERSONALLY I PREFER A BACK UP PIECE I DONT CARE ABOUT CALIBER OR PREFER ANY JUST TO HAVE ONE IS A BLESSING "BETTER THEM THAN ME I ALWAYS SAY" TOO BAD THE POLITICIANS WE PUT IN OFFICE ONLY CARE ABOUT COST. BETTER EQUIPMENT AND MORE BULLETS I SAY. GIVE ME A PISTOL FOR BACK UP AND LET ME CARRY ALL THE AMMO I THINK I NEED FOR MY PRIMARY AND SECONDARY WEAPON, ITS A WAR AFTER ALL IS SAID AND DONE THE MORE YOU CARRY THE BETTER CHANCES YOU HAVE OF GOING HOME.

[Joseph E. O'Hanlon Jr]

To those who state that to issue every soldier a pistol would be too expensive, look at some WW II German Army pictures. Sidearms were issued to just about every soldier, regardless of rank. As Germany spent most of the war as an occupation army, pistols were earier to carry for self protection. PLUS, each German soldier was valuable to the German Army, something which causes me to believe that OUR soldiers aren't to the Amerian Army. Besides, it is politically incorrect for peons and citizens of America to have pistols. Right? EVERY soldier should be issued a side arm as a back up weapon. Police do this as SOP. But the Army doesn't!!! When my son went to Iraq for the first time, I had a .45 made for him. The Army wouldn't allow him to take it!!! In Vietnam, as an Army Lt, I had to get my own .45 as only the CO was issued one!!! What absolute stupidity! During WW II, both my Dad and uncle had to do the same thing as all the big shots were the only ones with pistols. HOwever, Dad and my uncle DID MAIL home numerous war trophies, which included German pistols! But I couldn't do that from Vietnam nor can my son, an Army Captain, who just left for his second tour in Iraq and should be landing there as I type this. Naturally, he was again FORBIDDEN to take the .45 I had made for him and has to depend upon the underpowered 9mm. Of course, MANY "war trophies" will end up in the hands of generals and other big shots. Ah, well. It must make two gun Feinstein (who said she "gave up" her hand gun but was soon discovered to be lying as she had yet ANOTHER gun in her purse (in DC??? How did she get a permit???). Schumer is no doubt also pleased. While it is ok by him for Israeli citizens to sign out an ASSAULT RIFLE if they feel endangered, we AMERICANS are supposed to dial 911 because there are "too many" guns in America and having thousands of trained combat vets with pistols in their hands wouldn't be safe for "the children"!!! The Army is a true reflection of our society where rules/laws are more important than human lives.

[joe]

I carried my M16A4 during 2005 on my second tour and only aquired a backup M9 after my Corpsman took a shrapnel wound through the hand and got shipped home. The M16A4 was great but long and cumbersome in the tight confines of both Humvees and the tight quarters of the average Iraqi buildings we routinely cleared while conducting patrols in the city we lived in. My M9 while a piece of crap in general opinion served me well as a fallback weapon while clearing tight corners. In addition, my point man fell in a mud pile and his weapon got jammed up with mud as we were conducting a night raid. The Marine simply pulled his M9 from his drop holster and carried on. My point being that the sidearm is a vital piece of tactical weaponry that should be available to Grunts. On numerous occasions i supplied my Marines with my M9 for detainee escorts due to the shortage of weaponry. All Marine Infantry should have pistol training added to the training requirements.

[Dave Chasteen]

Why is it the long arm of the UCMJ reaches globally, but the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is attacked or ignored by some of our elected representatives? By the very nature of our service, GIs MUST BE ABLE TO DEFEND OURSELVES REGARDLESS OF GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION!!! I'm a former municipal police officer, and I never worried once about law-abiding citizens carrying concealed. I carried a Sig P220 with nightsights long before our department issued the Glock .40 S&W. I'm an old fart in the Guard now, but if I get deployed, you can bet your sweet life I'm taking a sidearm, or I'm going to jail. End of story.

[Jeremy]

There is no Question in my mind that every soldier should be issued a side arm. The real question is how to get it done. For starters take them away from the officers and give them to the soldiers that go outside the wire. The officers want to be treated special and they are because of their rank. It should not be at the expense of protection of their soldiers!! When it comes to what caliber of side arm that is and I expect will always be debated. You have to remember that side arms are for close combat and you will want one with good stopping power. In my opion the 9mm just doesn't have enough.

[hawkeye]

I see a lot of similar comments in here and all valid. I do remember my father having a .45 he brought home from WWII which was issued to him. My personal choice of weapon would be a 10mm which I call a .40 cal on steroids. My heart goes out to those soldiers that are in Iraq and Afghanistan who seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place, compliments our buerocratic idiots whos kids are not there. I took matters in my own hands though and joined the Navy and went into aviation for 20 years. I am retired now, working as a homeland security officer and guess what we use?, M-9's....I dont get that warm and fuzzy feel from it here, can imagine how it is on the battlefield. God bless you all and a safe return.

[Evan Cowart]

Dave C.

The govt at all levels ignore the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, they always have.

I am retired military and often wished to be able to carry with out question. To date the only time I needed a pistol was before it was legal to carry one in Texas, I had one and for that reason the level of violence did not get beyond the threat stage.

I rarely every go onto a military base, can't carry if I go on base, so I don't go there.

Kinda funny, in Texas it has been illegal to carry a pistol dating back to the 1860's or so. Logic was to protect the Peace Officer, some really strained logic. Only guys the Peace Officer had to worry about were the bad guys and they by definition don't obey the law. You can carry a long gun though the law is written such that they can still put you away for it.

My wife was told that the police often won't ticket a Concealed Carry License holder if he is stopped. She was told that a lot of police view them as potential back up, which is certainly true. More so today, we just had the Castle bill signed in to law. I know my cousin down in S. Florida doesn't care if a person has a gun, license or no, he is a Deputy Sheriff.

As to taking them away from officers in the military, no point, if the govt wanted every military guy out side the wire to have a pistol they would issue them one. It would not be a big deal. Just a case of the govt know best.

I actually thought every one in places like Iraq had a pistol to back up their rifle, so I guess this is news to me.

As to the P220, I had mine on me the night I needed one and still carry it, nice pistol, nickeled and has night sites. Only thing I might like better is my S&W 10mm, an extra serious pistol, but probably would have problems with over penetration in a big way. Just a tad less punch then a 41 mag.

Evan

[Rob]

I think a sidearm is a necessity for anyone who can find a way to carry it.
other good rules to remember are that if a gun is good to carry, more ammo is as well, and if one is good, two is better.
As for problems with the 9mm, I've read up some pretty amazing stuff about Blended Metal ammunition manufactured by RBCD and distributed by LeMas.
Look it up and get anybody you can to get it for you! Then pass some along to me since I'm not military yet or police, I can't get it.

On another interesting side note, i think military types should be under the same requirement that some police are: they should be armed at all times, which in most situations while stateside means a pistol.

[Tim B. 11B]

Gearing up to go back to the sandbox, the talk now is that we may now get sidearms in addition to our long guns.

[David Mills]

As Von Klauswitz said, he who ignores history is doomed to relive it ! The Marines on Iwo Jima suffered 55 dead just as they were leaving the Island, having had their rifles and ammo stored. Had they been allowed to keep sidearms, most of those guys would have survived or had a fighting chance.

[Evan Cowart]

I feel that all law abiding Americans should be allowed to carry under any circumstances. After all the criminals do. This would put us all on the same footing. Maybe a quick course in the rules of the game and then get after it. These people shooting up mauls and such would soon loose interest in those games.

Evan

[Rich]

I'm a retired Military Police Sargent and a pistol is essential to law enforcement activities. I carried a 45 in Desert Storm, the DC Guard was one of the last to get the 9mm. When you're loading prisoners into a duce and a half you can't be holding a rifle. A 45 is a slow moving bullet but it was produced for it's take down power. If I hit you in the arm with a 45 it will spin you like a top and make you fall down. I've seen people shot 6 or 7 times with a 9mm and keep on coming. The reason the Military doesn't issue pistols to everybody is because of the number of accidental discharges that do happen with pistols.

[L. K. Johnson 1st Sgt USA Ret.]

Always have carried a 45 and always will, retired after 3 wars and 22 years and yes 3 CIB'S. Needed a side arm and used it also.

[Drunken Brit]

The reason they don't give you pistols is simple. SAFETY. 50% of the troops are so poorly trained and incompetent with their weapon handling skills they would shoot themselves, their partner or some other piece of expensive kit. Fact - Police forces in USA lose more officers to their own weapons than to criminals. We've lost enough good huys so let us not make the same mistake.

The policy is there for a reason - just like mandatory use of body armour and helmets.

[Ethan]

Well, I'm not in the service (yet), my goal is to fly for the USAF. Anyway, I carry a 1911 as a back up when I pig hunt, partly because it is the only pistol I have ever been able to shoot accurately, and partly for the stopping power. I use the Specter Gear tactical thigh holster which I think is just amazing. I will attach to must 2" duty belts, carries a spare mag on the holster and is very easy to draw from. The down side would be if an enemy were to get their hand down there, it would be easy for them to draw as well.

I have to agree with what most people are saying, either issue a side arm to all service members, or allow them to field a weapon of their own. I haven't been in combat, but I know that either of those two choices would save countless lives.

Thats my two cents, and for all of you service members in combat areas, check out SpecterGear.com, the even have fully Molle/Pals compatible gear. If anyone has any reasons to not use it, let me know, I would be interested to hear stories.

[Paul Crabtree]

I don"t see what the big deal about N.A.T.O compliance with weapons is about.... Is the M-16 legal?

[JOE L. REYNA]

IF THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT CAN AFFORD TO PROVIDE WEAPONS TO THE IRAQIS FOR PROTECTION, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO AFFORD PISTOLS FOR AMERICAN TROOPS TO PROTECT THEIR LIVES.JUST THINK HOW MANY LIVES WOULD OF BEEN SAVED IN THE NAM IF AMERICAN TROOPS WOULD OF HAD A 45 WHEN THEIR M16s JAMMED IN COMBAT. SEMPER FI, MAC.

[Brian Ragland]

.45 ACP is the only combat round and the 1911 is the only combat pistol.

[Frank]

I'm reading the comments and wondering at how many of you really have used a sidearm in life and death situations. While I agree that the carry of sidearms should be a personal choice, it can't be left to an individual to just pick up a pistol without any training and start using it.
I served 20 years (Army) using both M16 and 1911. But was never afforded the opportunity to carry both at the same time. I am currently a deputy sheriff carrying a .40 Glock. I have carried a handgun concealed for over 30 years, so I know a little of what I speak.
For CQB there is no better weapon than a pistol. Even the slowest person with a pistol in the Soule position can get their gun into play faster than the fastest person with a long gun. But hitting the target takes practice.
Someone above (Joseph) mentioned that the police force always issues sidearms as a backup (SOP). Wrong -- the pistol is the officers’ primary weapon, and sometimes they get issued a shotgun or other long gun as a backup. Just wanting to set the record straight. We train, train, train to use that pistol, and still more accidents happen and officers shot with their own gun than from the bad guy.
As I said, I don't believe the military should restrict someone from doing whatever it takes to make them feel safe, or give them an edge. But if feeling safe is carrying a sidearm then there should be some form or competency testing that verifies the soldier is not only safe with his sidearm, but is able to show proficiency and accuracy in shooting it. Otherwise, the feeling of safety is nothing more than a hollow feeling, and bound to get someone dead when it comes time to use it. Our police department requires us to qualify one time a year and the course is very challenging. Other departments require their officers to qualify more frequently, but I don’t know of any department that lets their deputies carry without some sort of qualification and it sound like many here think it would be ok to let anyone that wants to pick up a pistol, carry it in combat. How absurd.
There are some really great handguns on the market today, most of the weapons mentioned in this series of posts are great weapons and I’ve shot just about everything out there, but today’s weapons are not the same as they were even 10 years ago, and most of them are designed for personal protection / law enforcement. They are not the weapons of yesterday. Most will not shoot accurately with military ball ammunition, or should I say they are not specifically designed to shoot “Ball” ammunition. Even the best .45’s out there, the Kimbers, Springfields, Glocks, S&W etc, today are designed as protection/law enforcement and work best with civilian ammunition that takes advantage of modern metallurgy and bullet co efficiency. They’re just not designed for ball. So you can’t have a military force running around with 500 different types of personal weapons. Imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to supply bullets for all the different types of small arms out there. The military should either issue their troops sidearm’s or develop a list of acceptable personally owned weapons and allow the individual the option of supplying their own. Using some BS about importation laws, etc, can be and should be relaxed for our troops returning from a war zone. They always have in the past. Honestly, the politicians are to blame for this. But you already knew that. They send our troops into harms way and then limit them on their ability to respond to life and death situations.
My two-cents worth, enough said.

[T. GUNNER]

No b/s. I am a firm believer in a .45 and a sawed off shotgun. One of the hardest things I had to do after coming back from Nam was putting away the .45 and it shoulder holster. Nearly 40 years later I never leave home without Bubba Springfield, my constant companion. I hope I never have to use it but the alternative is just not acceptable.
Enough of the b/s arm the troops properly!
Semper Fi

[scott schafer]

i think that all of your men and women need to carry a side arm. you never know when they might need it. we can never tell how many lifes it might save if they had them.

[Paul C]

A person will be as safe with a pistol as they will with a long gun, be it a rifle or shotgun.
The news media is responsible for the tainted reports about handguns being unsafe....Right now there is a report of a shootout with some suspected bank robbers and the Feds..One officer was killed in the battle but it was also reported that the suspects didn't fire their weapons

[George Henry]

SEND LETTERS, E-MAILS, FAXES, POST CARDS or whatever to your elected officals. In trying to discuss guh related issues with my local elected officals I can assure you they believe that the majority of Americans are anti-gun, anti-war and are disinterested non-voters.

[Paul C]

How much safer would we be if everyone carried a sidearm ? There wouldn't be as much "In Your Face" intimidation if there was a possibility of a sidearm pointed at their gut. I carry a 38 derringer. No long range here but if I need a weapon its there. I wish I could find a 357 mag derringer.

[Fred Stewart]

Two problems with selling off old surplus weapons: (1) The gun manufacturers would go nuts; (2) the loony left and their running dogs (CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, NYT, WP, etc.) would go nuts. Otherwise, it's a great idea.

[SSG Nelson, Riley C]

I think you guys are missing the point. I spent a year deployed in Iraq on a small infantry FOB near the top of the Sunni Triangle and my patrols had some kind of enemy action directed against us at least once a week. Either IEDs or small arms and the occasional mortar round and rpg ambush. But I think the thing that scared me the most was that one of my men would be killed by friendly fire. I had two men almost killed in the same incident one day when some idiot had a misfire with his MK19 and fired a 40mm HEDP gernade into a concrete barrier about 10 ft in front of them. I think there was about 3 negligent discharges on our FOB a day. And that is with weapons that the soldiers had spent their entire careers training with. If everyone was allowed to just pick up a weapon who think they needed one, (Most of these people would be REMFS who don't need to be armed with anything heavier then a paper weight. Seriously how many fobs have been over ran in OIF or OEF?)
the rate of ND's would increase exponentially.
I agree that the Army should issue back up small arms to its combat soldiers but it should of been done 20 years ago and we should train on them as much as we train on our primary weapon systems.

[Gordon Lewis]

I am an old man,(almost 76) I was in the Marines for a while, a side arm should be in all peoples arsenal, I have 2 of them, one in my car and one in my home. at close quarters a long gun is next to useless. Give the troops the tools they need and stop the B'S' let the politicians that like to give them-selves a raise spend the money on the people that go out to die for them. As an engineer I carried an M1, but when I became a Machine Gunner I had a .45. (Nice weapon) Contrary to popular belief it is quite accurate, it hits what you aim at. Sending a person into war without the right tools ,is like telling a Carpenter to build you a new house without a hammer. Semper Fi

[Jeffrey Hill]

The main reason that pistols are not issued to all Soldiers is a mind-set issue. The Army regards pistols as a purely defensive "weapon of last resort". I'm an MP CPT in the Reserves and a civilian law enforcement officer, and I agree that there are times when a pistol is the absolute best choice. Unfortunately, until the Army gets this mind-set problem fixed, I don't see it changing.

[R Dalby]

It looks like nearly everyone’s opinion is unanimous that all combat personnel should be allowed to carry a pistol. Is this government still ruled by the will of the people or has the government become a corporate dictator?

[Bill Newman]

Mr. Lewis couldn't be more correct with the 45 hits what you are aiming at. I carried a 45 for a short time in the corps, that has been over 15 years ago and i still carry one today. SWEET MUSIC after alittle squeeeeze. All Marines should carry her.

[ehlewis]

I had to laugh at Jim Berry's post - he was stationed in Viet Nam in '69 and the Air Force was adament that they could not have firearms. I bought my first handgun (Ruger .357 Blackhawk) in the BX at Elemdorf AFB, Alaska in 1976 and kept it in my room in the barracks. Most of us had large caliber handguns due to the problems with the wildlife. I remember some talk about storing them in the armory, but that never happened before I got out. I rather think concealed carry laws are BS, since the Constitution specifically and clearly grants the right to bear arms to "the people". And if I am not mistaken no government (Federal, State or Local) can legally take away that right. Too bad our Supreme Court has been made up of wusses for so long that they can't even read the Bill of Rights, which is quite clear, without warping it and twisting it to suit themselves.

[Doug]

I worked in a couple of Arms that we alot of Old 1911's that I would have been scared to let my guys use. They were in very bad shape. When you release the slide and you can stop it before it comes to a stop. You knew that the weapon needed some done on it. I sent alot of .45's out for repair and some M16A1's to. But I also carried a Colt Government Model .45 with me. I can't see why not all of our soldiers of all services have two weapons with them. You never Know when you'll need that second weapon to save your life or your partners.God bless all of our servicemen and women. Army vet.

[Joe LittleBear]

As a retired Vet and former Deputy Sheriff, I am constantly amused by the controversy over the 9 mm vs the .45 ACP... for it's size, the M 1911 A1 is the most powerful, compact and reliable man-stopper I have witnessed.. Yes the magnums are superior, but generally heavier and bigger... For size, the .22 magnum packs more punch than the .38 special, which was standard issue for police depts for several decades... most of the inaccuracy of the .45 relates to heavy trigger pull and worn parts....I've seen match grade .45's used in national competition.. Jamming can almost always be traced to ammo that is improperly sized or dirty...The m-14 is the best infantry rifle I have ever used, and I shot expert with 4 different varieties..... It is basically an improvement of the M-1 Garand....don't sell the AK-47 short either, it is durable and reliable. If you want a single all-purpose weapon, check out the " Kris" from Blackwater Arms..

[SSG Mike]

Simple solution. Do what we did in the '70's in the 82nd. Let troops buy and carry a personal handgun of their own choosing, must be of compatible caliber, and stored in the company armory, with a letter of approval from the commander.

[Albert Owens]

Jeff
I bet the way he got the glock was some poor service
man or woman had to give up there presonnel sidearm when they left country. They took my son from him when he left.
He got so mad that he crushed
all his magazines up and made his Taurus 45 useless to them.
Made them mad as hell.

[Morgan J. Walker]

I wish that someone in our Military would conceive to the fact that side arms for each soldier are a must on today's current battlefield. I own several, but if I would have my choice to carry into battle once again, it would be the Smith and Wesson M&P 40. I fine weapon, built idiot proof, yet very reliable.

[Albert Owens]

You are right. You can't beat
the 45. I have 3. I keep my Colt goverment and my Springfield compact close by at al times.Had a trigger job done and that worked wonders for it.

[Gerald C Proctor Sr.. HMC USN RET]

I humped a 45 in NAM for a year, Keep a 1911 under my bed in condition 1. It is a stopper, not a pop gun. If the US Gov. is too cheap to give the troops a 45, try a Czech CZ. It fires a 7.62 round and it is idiot proof. The US could buy them for less than $100.00

[SFC Hubbard OIF II, going back this year.]

I have seen Army doctors that carry pistols. One comes to mind that fired 5 rounds into a clearing barrel in Baghdad before he finally cleared it properly.

Not everyone is capable of handling a pistol, odds are those people ARE NOT the soldiers on the ground doing the real work.

Every troop should have a choice. Every troop should be trained CORRECTLY on the use of a side arm.

We are combat soldiers. Sure people mess up! If a soldier is incompetent, take his side arm and send him to work in the mail room. If a soldier has a side arm, he has a greater chance of telling his grandchildren war stories.

[C.A. Grimes]

I fully agree that every soldier in a combat area should be issued a sidearm. However that is not always either economical or based on of need issues.
But I'll tell ya, if that's where I was today you can bet that I would invest in my own based on reliabillity, ammo availabillity and carryabillity. In that order.
My uncle is a machinist who has his own shop. The one thing that he made sure of his employees is that they invested in their own gear. his reasoning is simple, if you can't invest in yourself then how can you expect him to. This is a guy who has had to scrap for everything that he's made because as one of 6 kids there wasn't much to go around.
Point is I'm pretty certain that the Armorers' or Gunners Mates can store your sidearm for you. You are still responsible for your weap but honestly would you have it any other way?
It's your backside hanging out in the wind otherwise.

[T. A. Force]

I too have been to Iraq, Although at the time it was with a transportation unit. With all the new high tech tracking equipment that are now in use with both my old transportation unit and my current Infantry battalion, the use or a side arm should be a must. The cramped area in the vehicles severly limits the use of the M16 or the M4 carbine. And with the CQB that goes on everyday now in Iraq the sidearm is a great addition. The M4 is prone to jamming with just the littlest amount of dust and I have never seen or heard of a "Clean" firefight

[Kris Hill]

A lot of comments on a hot topic. I agree that each soldier that leaves the wire should carry a secondary weapon. I also believe that every soldier should be trained to use that secondary weapon just as well as his/her primary. A lot of the problems with NDs or fratricide with handguns, come from inadequate training. I am a vetran, who has served in Ramadi during OIF 5-6, as an infantrymen. I think the most disturbing thing I have ever read is..."I think there was about 3 negligent discharges on our FOB a day." Posted by SSG Nelson, Riley C right here on this board. Any unit that has that many problems shouldn't even have been deployed.I was fortunate enough to serve in a unit whos commander not only allowed a secondary weapon, but pushed for it, and got us the training needed to use it well. As for me, I carried a beretta and later acquired a CZ75 from some poor misguided insurgent who didn't have a use for it any longer. Granted, I would have rather carried a 45, but I never worried about the 9mm. Take care folks, especially those of you who've been there or going there.

[Michael]

Just a few comments ... first to whomever it was that wanted to know what an ex marine is ... an "ex" marine is one of two things generally ... either an idiot who never served but couldnt stop at just big fish stories, or someone the corp rejected for one reason or another as useless.
Second, I love all the talk of hollowpoint & hydrashock, etc ammo ... Of course IT CAN NEVER BE ISSUED as it violates both the geneva & hague conventions & you would be subject to prosectution as a war criminal ... oops wait ... they are cutting off peoples heads & all sorts of other fun things ... carry whatever you can get away with but be prepared to buy it yourself ;)
The idea of issued side arms is wonderful but will never happen ... it would involve being trained to use them which from my experience is going to take longer & cost more ... uncle sam wants you in country as quickly as possible & is willing to deploy units with vehicles that dont run & in atleast one case that I know of an Abrams tank that arrived without a barrel! He is not going to give you an extra week to ensure that you can operate a handgun without shooting yourself in the foot.
As for policy regarding handguns in theater you will find most everyone has a different story because every unit has a different CO with a different attitude ... I was fortunate to work with a man whos policy was "I dont need to know about it unless it gets you into trouble ... & if you get into trouble an a** chewing is still probably better than a body bag" ... A policy I agree with whole heartedly!
pistols are not the last resort! they have thier place as do most things ... but my father killed a man with an e tool in Nam & his father bludgeoned a man to death in WWII with his steel pot (both of them were carrying unauthorized side arms & will attest to the fact that pistols are not the last resort because they too are limited in ammo ...
I personnally carried a colt python .357, springfield .45 acp, two knives, a set of brass knuckles(never used in cqb but available for worst case senarios ... & of couse an m40 ... also had an m82a1 available but it was too unruly for field work & stayed inside the wire unless I was told in advance that I would be shooting at tanks. (actually humped it twice against hard targets & it did perform well ... but it is definitely not a shoot & scoot weapon ;(
Lastly to gentleman that commented on the wonders of modern body armor ("makes him feel like a walking tank") ... It also has its place for instance any defensive position, any bullet magnet (machinegunners especially), & the everpopular urban patrol where there are far too many positions to scan for an enemy that is not likely in uniform ... But when it comes down to it rolling coffin or walking sometimes speed & agility are far more valuable than armor!
other than the afforementioned weapons I carried an elevation map & compass if available, replacement uniform, (with boots),1 1/2 gallons of water, ranger roll, spare ammo,carton of cigs, jar of peanut butter, & as many clean dry socks as I could steal from the laundry! On special occassions I would pack a gas mask (without mop suit), but I never humped any kevlar & would never have wanted too ! But I was Iraq the first time & we didn't parade ourselves through bagdad for a turkey shoot like the poor bastards are doing now ... so I would probably reconsider under present circumstances ?
Damn I still just wish they wouldve let us finish the job the first time ... atleast we had a military man running the show ? What is with the military man (if AF counts as military) running the spy org. & a civilian Sec of Def running the military ! Thank GOD rumsfeld is gone ...
Sorry for the extra rant ;)

[Noel]

Hey people, can't wait to see the movie coming out, "Hot Fuzz". That's how it should be, if I want to, nobody but our worst enemies should say 'boo' about me carrying a 12 guage scabarded on each shoulder, a submachine gun and a matched set of pistols with a third matching someplace in case I lose one I can still have two. Don't forget a ridiculous amount of extra magz. OK, this was toungue in cheek, but in responce to how some guys commit fraticide or injure themselves with handguns...I guess it could be true, but if you're trained on full auto weapons I don't see the stretch for understanding basic safety principals with a sidearm. My theory is, somehow pistols became taboo in our feminized society, so alot of people never get the chance for familiarization with them. Personally I just know to be serious about a any firearm, I got it drilled into me with the little single shot .22s we got to use in Cub Scouts and it implanted well. When I was in the army, they never really ingrained any safety rules, they just controlled us all the time and pretend we'll always be under a drill sergeant or range master's eye. Have a list of calibers that one would be able to resupply, and if you insist on your pet pistol in a caliber not on the list, you better bring all the ammo you need. The Geneva Convention rules applying to small arms rounds should not apply to sidearms considering the progress in just the last decade and understanding of ballistics, not to mention the circumstances that would apply in a handgun fight are different from military rifle battles of past wars. P.S. I don't know about among police officers, but it is a great lie/American hating propaganda that handguns are more likely detrimental to the owner/user than to the threat. Drill some safety and allow for range time if you're scared of a guy who totes an m-4 getting his hands on an m9. God bless all you who are fighting and making the world better.

[Ethan]

I have to agree with ehlewis on concealed carry laws and in many states it is really easy to get a permit. However, I have to say that some sort of training and certification must be met in order to obtain a CCW (california's term, I dont know if other states call it this). If any joker could carry concealed, I think that shootings would go up significantly, and many of those would be the person carrying shooting themself through mishandling of the firearm. Like I said earlier though, it should be easier to get the permit, unlike california here where you have to have be able to prove that you have some necessity for it (i.e. carrying large amounts of money to the bank for you business works in some counties, or like some of my family that lives on our ranch and doesn't want to have to unload going between pieces of property on public roads). Make us qualify, but don't make us jump though a pile of bueracatic red tape to do it.

[Nicholas Anna]

Also, the 9mm is a useless round in ball form. Thank god we are starting to put 45's back on the line, but still only for the brass. I think if the army wanted to save some money by keeping the M-9 and switching to hollow points. For whatever reason hollow points and shotguns are considered 'maiming' weapons under the new geneva conventions. Because a shoty to the head is much less humane than a 9mm ball that clips your thigh and causes you to slowly bleed out over a long period.....

[Perry]

I served in the Army for 10 years, was out prior to the first trip to Iraq.

In that time, it became very clear that the uniformed political types running the army were terrified of the weapons we troops carried. The training needed to be safe and accurate with our weapons was available , but if you the shooter , didn`t go after all you could get, and get some on your own , what you had was only a bare minimum.

Try calling your elected "representatives" , and demand that the troops be allowed to draw available issue weapons on an as-needed basis, and get those old 1911a1 pistols out of Anniston Army Depot , and send them to the troops where they need them.

Essayons,
Former 12f20 , Perry

[Bob]

I was in Germany during the early 50`s and most of my time was spent on the borders. My unit was classified as forward recon and we sometimes went where we(officialy not supposed to) brought back people that our gov`t wanted. I always carried a 22 w/hollow points and silencer as all the rest of us did. There were 4 in a team.Long arms just got in the way. Everyone should have one in combat.

[michael stark]

I used to transport vx&mustard gas. we had 45's till some ass decided we needed standard issue 9's. i was so pissed. a 45 would drop a target even if you only hit a sholder. I was a crack shot with my 45, i was only good with the 9. i hated them. if we have excess 45's issue them.

[Lewis . Foshee Jr]

While I was a policeman I used the 38 pol special and when i was a deputy sheriff I used the 357 mag mod 66 for eighteen years and for the last three years the Sig Sauer 40 cal. My weapon of choice is the Sig. It is simple like the 45 it has the knock down power a little less than the 45. It is stainless with low maintence and it is double action and the great feature it is an auto. I believe all military personell should have to qualify with a handgun and be issued one. As for the 1911s did you ever shake one? you can hear the link pins rattle on those things. If you are going to use a 45 use one of the later versions like the 1984 Colt with the night sights. My Sig has night sights sights also. I have a 1984 that I wouldn't take a farm in Georgia for. I love it. Of course a weapon aside from jamming is only good as the person who holds it. Training is where it is at. If you work with it you can take the whiskers off of a fly. Lewis Foshee Jr COL/WCSD/ret

[Lewis . Foshee Jr]

Have a happy Easter, Happy Passover and to my athiest friends......GOD help you...

Lewis E. Foshee Jr. Col/WCSD/ret

[Lewis . Foshee Jr]

One more and I have to go before I sit at this idiot box all day long getting nothing done.. Here goes.. I was at a street seminar back in 87, I think. The instructor had a guy with a knife and a guy with a pistol going at each other..I mean the guys were a stage apart.. Guess who prevailed? I will not say.. You wouldn't believe me anyway. Lewis E. Foshee Jr. WCSD/ret.

[Terry Harper]

It's pathetic that any possible source of added protection for our front line troops is denied.
Literally billions of dollars has been wasted or has "mysteriously" disappeared in Iraq, yet we hear daily about lack of needed supplies, inadequate, outdated and inferior equiptment.
Those companies or corporations making the huge profits from this situation while our troops sacrifice there lives and limbs because of cheap, outdated equipment or lack of funds should be boycotted by real patriots!

Our "leaders" telling us that "it's tough", "we must make sacrifices", "we must support our brave young soldiers" etc. sickens me every time they open their arrogant, selfish mouths.

Just reading some of the above posts and comments show that there are intelligent common sense solutions available, unfortunately this conflict has never has any intelligence, forsight or common sense applied.

It has been said from the beginning, let some of our "leaders" supply some of the real sacrifices, loss of loved ones, the death or maiming of a son, daughter, father brother or friend.
Let some of our leaders experience the real pain of war instead of the sound bite supportive tears.

As a Vet, I am sick to death of our so called leader's arrogance and audacity of using our fighting troops minute by minute heroic sacrifices as sound bites for there personel agendas and campaigns.

If a side arm will save one life, one limb, one family or just offer a little more help and confidence to our front line troops, then it should be a number one priority.

Maybe just once, our troops needs and welfare will be considered before the bottom line of and future campaign donations or consultant jobs with power peddaling corporations.
I truly hope more Americans are getting as fed up and sick and tired of how this "war" is being carried out.

[Gary]

The solution of sidearms is simple but needs a 2-pronged approach; military and political.

Every officer that sets policy and every Congressman and Senator get 4 free trips to Iraq per year. They are issued a typical long arm and sent, as their own patrol, on an urban mission where they are likely to meet some insurgents.

When they return, in reduced ranks, ask for updated policies and money for sidearms and training ... and remind them that they get to do it again in 3 months.

What do you think their answer would be ?

It's sad, but this will never happen because these are the people that decide who goes.

[wayne melton]

I'M A VET: LET THEM CHOOSE WHAT'LL GET THEM HOME ALIVE...GOD-BLESS THEM ALL!!!!

[Brad]

According to Alvin York's biography (1930 - 10 years before the Gary Cooper movie) all troups were issues a long gun (30 cal) and a side arm (45 cal). His 45 saved him when charged by 5 germans. He was low on rifle ammo by that point and the 45 was faster. The movie has him using a luger but it was his issue 45 that he actually used.

So my two points:
1)there was a time when we as a country sent men into combat that we equipped them with everything needed.
2) We clearly won the wars when the standard issue calibers were MANLY calibers: 30 cal long gun and 45 cal side arm. Changing to the "girly" calibers 5.56 rifle and 9mm pistol dosen't do the job.

[Noel]

Heh heh,love the "manly" and "girly" calibers comment Brad. I think there's something to consider in amount of rounds one can carry though. For this reason I like the compromise calibers of 6.8mm and .40 S&W. Make 30 round magazines for the 6.8 though, I don't know if they have those, probably the obscure 40 round 5.56 magazines would hold at least 30 6.8? My .40 S&W holds 15, so it's not even giving up any capacity of the M9 unless you have those new mags that hold 2 extra, or extended mags.

[Kadol]

While in Nam I had every weapon i could get a hold of. whatever weapon I needed. With the 25th Inf, it was an M60 and an M16. with the Americal it was an M16 and a 38. When I got to MACV SOG it was an M2 carbine and a 45. Now with The DoD Police it is an M9 and an M4.

[Ex navy weasel]

Sidearms in combat?.. What a novel idea.

I have to utterly agree with the general assesment here on the need for them.

I also agree with people when they talk of the inadequacy of the .223 and 9mm Ball ammo as a combat round.

In hunting communities .223 ammunition is classified as a small game round.
Now my brothers assesment of its effectiveness was less than stellar from his time in Iraq. Hollow points would be able to negate the weakness, but unfortunately the US policy of adhereing to the Geneva conventions ban on anything but Ball ammunition for combat rounds makes that impossible.

9mm is used sadly for a much weaker reason. All of out allies utilize it. So we adopted the round in order to conform to their standards.

[Greg]

I have always been a 1911 guy, and CC permit in multiple states, But as a Soldier I believe I should have some say in the basic load I carry, and what devices I decide to carry. I know I would want a 45 ACP on my side no matter the combat environment, even if I am keeping the last bullet for me. Earlier it was mentioned that take the Politicians into an urban area and let them perform house clearing for a period of time. Sorta liked that due to the sense that sometimes it takes experience in the environment to be able to truely make a sound decision. Any side arm would sorta suffice, and I liked many of the mentions earlier to include a small pocket pistol as a third (never really been much a Glock guy -no disrespect to the product.) But If I had to choose I would put a 1911 at my side to include a sub machine in same caliber,, and a bolt action in 25-06 or 308 or 338 Lapua for the longer range (roof top clearing from afar, window sniper clearing, or IED establisher termination). and the ammo I do believe makes a difference, but will hold that comment. enjoyed reading the posts here So I will thank a Soldier and an English Teacher for that ability.

[SDMike]

I'm not a vet - flunked my physical trying to enlist during Nam - but I spent 30 years designing weapons for DOD. CCW for 25 years in three states with no ADs (never even heard of a "real" civilian AD so I think that's a BS issue). Now a college teacher. My students in the SD Guard tell me they are trained on and issued a 9mm. Some are back from Iraq and indeed they were issued and carried a 9mm.

[falelua tagoai]

Today's wars are urban, sometimes rural, especially in the "sandbox" Iraq.The pistol should be standard, as I experienced in the Sunni Triangle. Everyone on convoy missions should have one due to the confined spaces in the truck cabs. Fortunately for my unit, we all came back alive. We didn't get any M-9's until an MI unit was leaving the country, so we signed for 40 something pistols and again only the Tiger Teams were issued them. Most of our truckers never fired these pistols, so we started a 12 day training program at Balad Cmp Anaconda for you OIF vets. These pistols came in handy for our convoy security teams, we really appreciated the extra friendship of troops w/pistols. I think w/proper training and respect of new weapons all units can operate more sufficiently. I was sad that I couldn't sign for one but I always told the tiger teams that they should treat it like their best friend and trust in their training. Sgt T CA Nat'l Guard OIF I 2003-04

[Evan Cowart]

Masad Ayob (hope I spelled that right), a cop up in new york, noted for his pistol abilites and such, a trainer and all. He tired the test of the knife weilder and the pistol shooter. He had a man with a knife, on his command run 21 feet and at the same time a policemen was to draw and fire his pistol down range. The knife toter won most of the time. He reached the 21 foot marker before the officer could draw and fire his pistol.

Probably has something to do with the reason that Texas considers 21 feet as the distance at which a knife attacker turns into a target.

Evan

[Alberto Ortiz]

I'm retire,but I'd like a back up if I had a choice. The choice I would make would be the 45 over the 9mm,because of it's power. I did not shoot expert until my second enlistment. I carried the 45 and the M16 off and on and at one time both. This was peace time army and they were deciding weather to issue one or the other at the time. In the end, I carried the M16 as a mortarman. I did not like this, since I had to carry the bipod for the M29(40lb),but I did it. The army has since issued many differnt versions of the 16, and the SAW, even a air cooled belt feeded machine gun that look like a WWII 30 cal. Yes, I say to a side arm and will write my congressman to look into it.

[SGT K]

Wow. Lots of comments. I was a gunner on an M1114. For the first three months I didn't have a side arm, and it made me nervous. There is a lot of area to cover, and sometimes your main weapon can't get around fast enough. By the end of the tour, every guy man in the company was carrying an M9. Only three people in the entire company ever fired it in combat (but everyone on the line fired their main assigned weapon.)
In the turret, I often only had a 249 mounted - but I always carried my 16 and my 203 - and the M9 when I had it.
In a firefight in Fallujah, I had the honor of having a bad drum of ammo loaded in my SAW. (SAW was clean and functional, ammo was bad) Had I been on foot, (like I was trained) I would not have had the 16 to transition to, and would have liked to have that M9.
HOWEVER, when the Joes in my Infantry company got their hands on the M9s, suddenly it was the OK corral. Nobody would have conceived of poor muzzle discipline with the M16, but the M9s were almost treated like toys (more so considering we had lasers on them) There was one incident (that went unreported) of a team leader "getting his teams attention" by shooting the truck next to them with his M9. It's only a 9mm round - what harm could it do?
As for personal weapons - I want nothing to do with that. If you've ever been in an Infantry company, you know there are always those guys who aren't quite right in the head. Giving those guys free reign on weapons and ammo is not a good idea. There is also the consideration of controlling your troops. "Where's your water?" "I had to get rid of my water to make up for the shotgun ammo for my backup shotgun"
Consider how many guys carry five or six knives because they can - now think about the same guys carrying whatever pistols they want....not a good idea.
I never fired my M9, I was glad to have it, but sometimes I wished the other guys in the platoon didn't have pistols....