Barn busting, Remington Rand style

Submitted by Eric Daniel

In 1990 I was issued an M1911A1 .45 caliber pistol that had been manufactured by Remington Rand during WWII.  Though a stout and reliable firearm, my “Colt” had one limitation. 

Its accuracy. 

To put it mildly, I was surprised the bullets ever hit the ground.  At 25m I had a shot group of around 2 feet. 

Now, I was (and still am) by no means an expert on firearms, and stories abound regarding the inaccuracy issues of the M1911A1, but the one thing I did know was the .45 was, and still is, used extensively in pistol competitions, so I knew the weapon design was not the issue, nor was the ammunition, but I was at a loss as to why I literally couldn’t hit the target right in front of me.

This went on for a year or so until we got a new Platoon Leader in our company who also happened to be something of a shade-tree gunsmith and a Colt collector.  What he said was, no the weapons aren’t bad, and the ammunition, while not match grade, wasn’t the cause, but rather, the Army’s level of “tolerance” in key components.  Bottom line, all my troubles centered on the barrel and barrel bushing.  Upon further inspection it was noted that when fully seated (slide all the way forward) my barrel was still capable of movement, a LOT of movement, as was explained to me, which obviously was having an effect on my accuracy.  Unfortunately, as the LT explained, that “slop” was still within Army tolerance, so technically there was nothing to be done.

Well, the next day what should appear but a Brownell’s catalogue, listing all the parts I would need to ‘fix” my .45.  I purchased a barrel, barrel bushing, barrel link and pin (as well as a plastic deadfall hammer and some lapping compound to fit the barrel and bushing to the slide) and then spent the next field problem hammering the slide back and forth the fit them.

The results, however, were immediate and satisfying.  My shot groups had collapsed to about 5” (good I thought, considering I was still shooting a stock slide and receiver.) The Lt., on the other hand, was shooting VERY good groups, but then he’d gone the extra step to get a complete fitted slide assembly, to include adjustable rear sight; after qualifying he’d just remove his slide, re-attach the Army issue one, and turn the .45 back into the arms room (which would explain why folk who checked his .45 out to qualify with didn’t do so well.)

Anyway, that small investment on my part not only dispelled all those accuracy issues surrounding the .45, but also improved the quality of my shooting.

Visit Brownells here

Comments

[BWJones]

I seem to remember that it was 1990 or 91 when the services switched to the M9. In fact, my cousin in the Coast Guard at the time ended up dumping many, many 1911s from the Coast Guard, Army and Air Force in the San Francisco Bay at an undisclosed location... Yes, that was the official DOD decision... Dump 'em in the Bay.

[wacurry@megavision.com]

Eric Daniels does not know anything about shooting 1911 A-1s, or anything else about pistol shooting.

I do. Since I have shot competatively pistols since 1974.

Eric Daniels, with way to much time on his hands is now posing as very knowledgeable about pistols?

Since Eric says that he is a member of the US military, we should all listen very carefully to Eric?

I will bet that Eric couldn't put 10 rounds in the black at 50 yards if someone gave him a box full of ammunition and day to do it.

Eric appears to be just another soldier that thinks his uniform makes him an expert shot.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Yet all the US civilians are of a mind that these heroic US soldiers can shoot better than Annie Oakley.

Bull!

Go Eric! Go!

[Eric Daniel]

Wow....

About the only constructive thing I can think of to say would be Daniel, D-A-N-I-E-L, no "S".

[Hugo]

Maybe he's been at too much of the Jacks

[RobV]

I guess Mr. wacurry never heard the term "Good nuf for Govt work.."

Eric, I'd say your "gunny" was bang on correct. Govt tolerances are measured in fractions not decimals.

[Robert Kile]

Mr? Wacurry,
You're what we call;"an Ass"!

[Tim]

Hey curry why don,t you tell us if you ever had the pleasure of serving and shooting in our military if no then go play weekend warrior and leave the shooting to the real men!!

[Jerry Dison]

I'm sure every soldier that was ever issued a 1911 and had to qualify with it,(as I did in 1987) can attest that we all could field strip that pistol and practically put it back together with our eyes closed. Nowhere in Erics' article did he attest to being an expert, but quite the opposite. He very clearly let everyone know he was not. Yet for some inexplicable reason, "wacurry" took the whole article as some kind of fired up brag piece and a personal insult. I guess he has some beef with the military for some insane reason. The civilian known as "wacurry" may indeed be a crack shot, but he obviously cannot comprehend the written word. To slam somebody like he did with evidence to the contrary right on the same page really does make him look like an ass. Well stated Robert.

[EC Tovar Jr]

I read the original post with interest. What was done with these pistols was HIGHLY irregular--but if you wanted accuracy, it was the only way to do it.

I remember while in the Service, I had the chance to shoot in an I Corps Combat Pistol Championship. We could use two hands, and all the targets were at 25 yards.

I attempted to draw one of the new M9's, but instead I got a 1911 from a Battalion arms room--the durned thing was ORANGE with rust and neglect.

On the way to the range on the day of the competition, I took an ammo can full of Break Free, took the grips off, and proceeded to work the action--which took a LOT of effort--until it moved. Upon arrival, triggers were weighed--mine would not trip, despite over 8 lb of weight on the stack!!

Nevertheless, I found that by holding low right, at 5 o'clock, I could land rounds into the bullseye. I managed to come in second in that Competition--not bad, considering the amount of competitors!

Fast forward to today--I am an active Conventional Pistol competitor, at the cusp of breaking into Master. Both my wadcutter gun and ball gun will hold 1.5 inch at 50 yards, from a Ransom rest. I can chew the center out of a timed or rapid fire target--but I still look back with fondness on the days of parkerizing, rattly guns out of the rack, and that 1911A1 pistol.

[Ecosharp Investigator]

I am much disquieted by this boys "enlightened" review of the Colt 1911. I served a few and when I got to choose my personal sidearm it was and will always be the 1911. I was able to find a nice tight one, and I 'acquired' an old black leather shoulder holster which i modified to rest on my chest under the blouse. It was my constant companion and got me and my troops out of many a jam. Saved me and my men on more than one occasion. But then I'm just an old sergeant, what do i know. So what does our venerable reviewer opt for the 9 mighty mouse or what??? Last time I shot against a Marine Gunny, without a doubt the finest marksman I ever met and he out shot me, transfered that one right over to him without question. Last I talked to him he was able to cycle that one out and still has it. Man do I miss that ole piece of hardware. The 1911 is as accurate as the operator, and his armory SGT can make it. Believe me, that piece with knock down a charging buffalo. So let's tune up the ole girl, give her a nice lube job, all in the right places and go out and have fun. And if they are a coming thru the door (enemy), ya don't have to wait for it to open. Do your own door knockin with a real weapon.

[RJ]

Isn't it the truth that every group has an ass. I just had to say something.
US Army 68-71

[Mick]

"Heroic soldiers shoot better than Annie Oakley?" Yeah, I'd say they do seeing as how I doubt Annie Oakley ever had someone charging her position wanting to KILL her when she was shooting.
Cutting down our military warriors, are you freaking kidding me? You're making fun of a guy with a Bronze Star who is a freaking CavScout! You're making fun of the military who are RIGHT NOW on patrol wondering if they are gonna' live through this day. I'd say that pretty much qualifies them as experts to me!
Kick ace article and right on.
My dad carried one of those clanky suckers in WWII and Korea, and I did during the end of Nam.
My son deploys next week and will have a 9mm thank God. (Not for the knockdown power, but for the danged accuracy!)
And right on Jerry, I could field strip and slap my .45 back together in the dark, the mud, the rain,oh yeah, sweet memories...

[john]

my take on the .45? At home, civilian life, I pack a Browning HP 9 mm, when I pack, but military, when you know a LOT of crap may be falling on your head any minute? Gimme the old .45 - in fact, gimme two or three of them, because when you hit something, it STAYS hit....personally, I think switching to the 9mm was one of the dumbest moves ever

[William Zwiker]

As a former gunsmith, I've worked on plenty of 1911s and 1911A1s.

And as a former soldier, I know that the usual engagement range wherein one might need to use the pistol was about seven feet. Not yards. Not meters. Feet.

At that kind of range, "minute-of-chest-cavity" accuracy is good 'nuf.

[James Smith]

I carried a 1911 in the navy during the korean war and every once in a while I would have to target practice with the marines and they were in charge. So I had to shot from the positions that they dictated. I hated shooting the 45, I felt like I was better off throwing throwing rocks. I could see the round ark downward as I fired. Now after all these years I would love to have a 1911a1. That was a real weapon.
James Smith former navy police petty officer

[John]

God do I remmeber straping on that chunk of steel! We had blackened stainless frame .45's on my sub. Talk about heavy! But even though it was not all that accurate past spitting distance when it mattered we knew it would drop a target be it drenched in salt water, mud or abnything else. Big mistake going back to 9 mm. Hell it was the lack of stopping power of the p-38 9 mm/.38 that lead to the mighty .45. Why the hell did we go back toa popgun? Oh I know it was to make NATO happy. An apeasement that most likely has cost us American lives.

[B Taylor]

I don't know where RobV got his information regarding the US government measuring in fractions not decimals. Can you enlighten me please? I'm an Aerospace welder working for all of the uniformed services, NASA and (nearly) every aircraft manufacturer in the world. We measure everything using the metric system. My welds and OAD's are measured on granite tables, three times down to generally +/- .001,before I allow it to leave my welding booth. Then it goes to NDT (Non Destructive Testing) X-Ray, dye penetrant, then the parts go to inspection services where they get inspected several more times to ensure they fall within small metric tolerances we are required to meet.

[Eric Daniel]

Again, a little clarification….

1) I’m not bagging on the M1911A1. I like the M1911A1 very much and I especially like fact that it’s made of steel. You could literally drive over it with a tank and after picking the mud out it’d function just fine.

2) That particular .45 however, and I’ve been issued many, was just plain old tired. The barrel bushing was worn, the barrel was worn, the slide was worn and the sights were mashed. But then, it was over 40 years old and quite possibly may have seen service in a couple of wars, so that is to be expected.

3) I was not looking to make a “tack driver” nor was I planning on trying to qualify for the Olympics. I also wasn’t “blaming” my pistol for my poor shot groups. I was simply confronted with an equipment issue (worn parts) and had to get creative in resolving the situation. The parts I ended up ordering completely resolved my situation and I had no desire to push the issue further (there was no way in hell I was going to try and get away with using my own slide assembly, for example, nor did I think it necessary.)

[Bill Brown]

The army some years ago refitted all the 1911's and did not replace the barrel bushing or the barrel . They , the ( army) rather picked up the 9 mm which is not a stopping round by any means , as was later found out . Again someone reiventing the wheel , when we had a good weapon . Tax payers money again

[Tom]

It was meant to be used at close range. And to reload fast. The handgun has saved a many of a life. Not at 50 yards but less then ten. And most likely killed more by accident then any other weapon we had in the past. Poor training accounts for that.

[rlpaynewa]

I was a Navy corpsman who served as a rifle platoon corpsman with the Marines in the Korean War. We had trained with carbines, but these were taken away and we were issued a Colt.45 in Korea (mine was a Remington). I think we may have fired one clip from one while attending Field Med School so I had no idea how to shoot or clean one. The first time I stood weapons inspection I drew my .45 as the platoon leader stepped in front of me as I had been instructed by the Marines. He ducked and passed me by. Afterwards he called me over and told me that corpsman did not stand weapons inspection in his platoon. The previous corpsman had had an accidental discharge and almost blew his head off.

A Marine returning to the States sold his Thompson, but the deal did not include his ammo. He gave me a sand bag full of .45 shells. As is said, practice makes perfect. I became very good at hitting C-rat cans and had fun shooting at the paddy rats. They were quick, fast and hard to hit.

During the firefights I was involved in I was too busy taking care of Marines to fire my weapons. I used the M-2 carbine I had acquired mainly as a leg splint. It worked great for that.

The only time I went to squeeze a round off I thought what a big head the person crawling towards me had. Then it dawned on me it must be a Marine helmet although I had been told there were no live Marines in that direction. That Marine probably never realized how lucky he was.

I have seen what a .45 will do to a chest (an accidental discharge). The victim was instantly dead.

When I was sent to the rear I used to volunteer to be the field corpsman at the rifle range. The gunny knew I liked to shoot and used to bring out .45's for us after the Marines left. He taught me a lot.

After my Marine tour I served aboard a ship. I was assigned to the landing party and had to do some test firing at a target towed behind the ship. When my turn came and I walked up with the .45 in my hand that I had just been issued. There were many nasty comments about everybody needing to duck because the corpsman had a gun in his hand.

Firing from the high stern of a cargo-type ship,I put every round close to the bullseye on the towed target that was bouncing up and down and around in the wake of the ship. The only one to even put every round on the target. Nobody said a word when I finished. When I returned the weapon to the ship's armory, the gunner's mate said. "Doc, where in the hell did you learn to shoot like that."

I think the Colt .45 got its bad reputation for inaccuracy from the old guns whose barrels were probably shot out, were not taken care of, and were fired by shooters who did not know how to shoot them. I still think Colt .45 auto has the best "feel" of any pistol I have fired and I know they can be deadly accurate.

[Peter Michael]

Hmmm... Let me just say, to this day my weapon of choice for personal protection has been and will continue to be the venerable 1911, albiet my present one is a Kimber Custom...but the one that I had while in Nam was a standard issue 1911 that I had had reworked by the Marine Armorer in Georgia. I had many occasions to have to use it, and whatever I hit...stayed down. Unlike what happens with the current 9mm's. And...., May I ask...Mr Wacurry....what ever kept you from being in the service? Were you too good for it? were you a draft dodger? or perhaps...protecting the freedoms you have received by living in this country and being able to bear arms is something you take for granted and do not realize that all of us who served made it possible for you to have the life you do. You seem to be rather illiterate, because you failed to read and comprehend what the writer of the original article Eric Daniels was saying...simply that by trial and error he got an old 1911 to become a bit more accurate by changing out some worn parts.. or..perhaps you are just simply....an ass..

[Edward Holman]

I was an marine infantry LT in the 1970s. The M1911 was my issue. Anybody who's packed one knows the guy is right about the sloppiness of it, and it's plausible the above cure would tighten it up for quals. But in running goddamn gunbattles at 10 yards or less demands the best knockdown pistol on the planet, and that's the .45 ACP.

[Michael S. Betts]

I carried a Remington-Rand 1911 as an off-duty weapon for several years but swapped it for a 9mm when the department decreed that we couldn't carry anything larger than a .38 off-duty. Broke my heart when I found out that R-R 1911's are priced at $1200 - 1400 at gun shows now.

Ever wonder why cops shoot suspects 4+ times now? Because their 9mm's are pissant popguns, that's why. If you double-tap someone with a .45 and he doesn't go down - RUN for your life!

[Terry Weller]

I'd be willing to bet that when S/Sgt John McGINTY got his CMO on Opertion Hastings in July '66, he was real happy to have his .45 with him and not some wimpy 9mm. If I remember right, he killed 6 or 7 NVA that day with his. Naturally, all at close range.
To use a phrase from a favorite Gunny of mine from those days, wacurry talks like a man with a paper A*^hole.

[Ed Russell]

I agree with the author. I am not a gun expert. I did carry a 45 in the military for awhile and liked the attributes of 'knock down' power at close range and low muzzle velocity which means if you had to use it to protect yourself in your own home, your less likely to send a round thru your neighbors bedroom wall also.The biggest drawbacks of the weapon are noise, and accuracy. This puppy will definitly hurt your ears if your not protected. I agree somewhat with a few of the responses about 'shooters ability' being partly responsible but honestly, sometimes I think I couldn't hit the ground at 10 ft. with this 'NEW' off the shell 1911 I bought. Nevertheless, I like it and still have it but I would like very much to be able to improve on it's accuracy. Mine is from the Springfield armory. (they might all be for what little I know about it )

[Bruce Stump]

I fired manya 1911 as aM MP in the 80's. While none of them were "Tack Drivers" ( I never thought of combat shooting as a tack driving contest) I was always able to put rounds on target. My measure of success was to take a target hold it up to the middle torso and see if I would want to be struck in that spot by a 230 gr Ball round. The answer was always a resounding HELL NO! I've also fired the M-9 extensively. I'd walk over a crate full of them to get to 1 1911.

[Bill Bowers]

I purchased a basic 1911 from Springfield Armory about a year ago. I went to the range contemplating all the comments I had read concerning inaccuracy and sure enough, I was all over that target from 10 yards.

I had a gunsmith work the trigger and add adjustable sights but he insisted that all else was good (barrel, bushing, etc) as delivered. When I got the pistol back I still couldn't hit anything. When I handed it to my gunsmith, he put five rounds in the bullseye while creating "one" hole. Needless to say, my attitude toward my SA 1911 changed following that demonstration and I left the range with some fairly impressive targets of my own that afternoon. I love my 1911 and have to get to the range at least once a week to get my recoil fix. I shoot better with the 1911 than with any of my three 9mm pistols and certainly like the shape of the holes better than those left by my Mark IIs.

As Yogi Berra once put it, "Ninety percent of the game is physical, the other half is mental." He may have been on to something.

[cdburklund]

As a medic way back in the very early 70's, I was issued an old well worn gov't 1911. It was heavy but it could shoot. I liked it because I could load up with my gear for SAR and go out on a jaunt with the guys and still carry ammo and a weapon and not feel like I was carrying as much weight as some guys. ( I only weighed 145 back then) A guy could easily end up carrying so much NECESSARY stuff you couldn't move as fast as you wanted to when the body waste came into contact with the spinning ventilation device. It gave me manueverability.
In the 35 years plus years, I have been an ER Nurse in the 3 busiest ER's in my state. I have never seen anyone survive a head shot with a .45. I once took care of one guy with 3, count'em 3 taps to the head from a 9. He lost some gray matter but he came in talking and what he lost he apparently didn't need.
Consequently, my primary house gun is a Caspian framed 1911, looks just like what I carried back in the day except for the Pachmyer grips. Don't leave home without it.
Oh wacurry, you sound like a wannabe, when I was in we had really bad words for wannabes, none of them would I use in mixed company, but ee wouldn't want you with us, that would be mixed company.

[SGTKinsella]

Commenting on a broader topic, the one where everyone tears apart what Eric has to say in his posts:

It seems the Kit Up! site has not gotten as many posts from people other than Eric in the past three or four months (I didn't go back and check dates, I'm just basing this on my casual reading of this site ) so Eric, being one of the moderators, has had to fill in the empty space.

Every Soldier has an opinion about a piece of gear, and every Soldier has some kind of trick they used to get by in hard times (Sharing these opinions and tricks is the point of this feature). I would imagine that Eric is running low on stories and tricks to keep things going.

That means every armchair sniper, and "military buff" sees fit to tear him down. (unfortunately, I include myself in that category)

Give the guy a break. If you really think he's full of crap, go ahead and post something and tell everyone how much better it is than what Eric is posting.

[John W. Edinger]

I've never fired a pistol in my life and the largest rifle is a 12 gauge use in "turkey shoots" and even I understood what Mr. Daniel was saying in his article.

BTW, go troops, I appreciate the job you guys are doing. Wish the politicians would get out of the way and let you guys finish the job like it should be done.

God bless America and the men and women who serve and protect it....

[TwinEdge]

Hey guys,Sgts. and Lts. this is all quiet understandable...Even though I have not shot one of these 1911s,and it don't mean i can't shoot...
But,don't you think that MR.ERIC has weak forarms,and wrists and thats why he can't shoot straight,hehehehe....Thats my 1 cent on the subject...

[JSFMike]

When I was assigned to a NavWeps Station, the gunny sgt in charge of the guard force made sure us Navy officers could shoot. He took personal charge of each of us so we could qualify with each firearm on the station. For sidearms, he worked on the pistols and after many firings at the range, adjusted the sights, grips, and triggers to each of our personal characteristics. We were assigned one each, tailor-made sidearm, M-16, M-14, and shotgun for the 3 year tour. That's what makes a shooter a expert marksman.

[H C Juengst]

I was on a Brigade pistol team in 1965, USAPAC matches in So. Korea.
I had to take a pistol from the Battery Armory and when I went to sign one out the armorer showed me the entire stock of "45's" and told me to disasemble them and find matching serial numbers if possible.
when the orginal issue was made to the unit all of the arms were "deep cleaned". They were disasembled and cleaned in big vats then the parts were reasembled without regard to serial numbers.

[Chris Bailey]

Funny what I read in a tactical gun magizine that the US military may go back to the .45 due to lack of 9mm stopping power. The pistol they are considering is the Smith & Wesson MP 45.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=53909&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=26807&isFirearm=Y

[Dale]

As a marine attached to S.T.A. Plt in the early 90's I had the rare option of choosing between the new barretta, or the reliable colt. My father and grandfather both carried the colt and had nothing but praise for the worlds longest serving military firearm. What wacurry doesn't realize is that ALL military weapons have more rounds fired through them than any one man could fire in a lifetime, let alone afford. As a marine sniper I require the best accuracy out of my weapons, and the barrel/bushing swap was just the thing to tighten up my groups. Another little trick was to apply some electical tape in several layers to the sides of the slide and then GENTLY clamp it in a vise to tighten the slide to the reciever. This should be done with care and supervision. With every other marine on the qualifying line "popping" off rounds with thier new M-9's, the roar of the old 1911 was a pleasant surprise to the old range officer. Not to mention that I qualified as a pistol EXPERT, four times with that "old, inaccurate, obsolete, piece of junk", with my highest score of 198 out of a possible 200 points. wacurry can KISS MY JARHEAD ASS!!!!

[Bob Bell]

I am both a NRA pistol instructor,IPSC,and a retired combat pistol instruction in law enforcement. I have shot almost every handgun that is made. I am a former Marine,[RVN]. The only handgun that I ve ever felt comfortable with was a .45 colt or clone. I can tell you that
I've used Brownell's for decades. If you would like an even tighter group, purchase a Barstow barrel and bushing set. You do have to decide which barrel you want, target or combat. IF you shoot paper, get the target. If you carry get the combat series... Also, there are some other considerations. You can send the gun to someone like Terry Tussey, in Ca. for the best combat action job I've seen. He has done 3 of my .45's. Chip Mc Cormick, is also great, a little pricey. A major consideration are mags. get good ones, like Chip McCormick, Millett, or others. The worst case is have a tuned .45 and it jams because of a cheap mag... good luck and good shooting....Semper Fi

[Balls Ballard]

It's been many years too remember everything but... after my discharge, I found a decent looking Colt M1911A1 and like others, I was all over the target. So, I purchased a kit consisting of a barrel, barrel bushing, barrel link and pin, the kit included an 'extra' spring, - I should say -'additional' spring [which I installed but cannot remember it's function].

Afterwards, I blew them away - nobody could touch me! A few years later (with both me and my .45 older) a couple of young crackerjacks kept up with me. until I swithched to 'match' ammo.

As Andy Warhol would agree - That was my "fifteen minutes of fame!"

As for WACurry's comment - I couldn't agree with him more!

Signed 'a decorated Vietnam Combat Veteran with two tours of duty on the "most-northern-Allied-outpost" in South Vietnam.' - Balls

[KJ]

I too carried the .45 as a submarine quarterdeck watch and below decks watch. We got to carry five round in a magazine which was not in the weapon. I qualified on the .45, long nose .38 and the M-14 and actually scored better on the .45 and the M-14 than the weapons (TM) guys. I was just a knuckle dragging aux. Machinist's Mate (SS).

But more to the point. The .45 when out of ammo made one heck of a rock or club. The 9mm would probably shatter.

[Dan Post]

In 1968, while at A school at the GLAKES Naval Base, I went to the range, and hoped to qualify for a marksman badge. As an ET, and due to ship out on a carrier, I figured the only way to get anything other than the 'gedunk medal' was to try for a marksman ribbon.
I was issued a 1911, as it did not have the rebate at the frame behind the trigger, and it was so old that the range office told me not to put more than 5 rounds in the magazine. He also cautioned me to ease the slide forward as they had had some mishaps when a slide went forward on these old pistols, breaking off the sear. The result was that after the first round went off, the last two were usually in the ceiling! Needless to say, the accuracy was not such that I ever qualified. Alas.
Now, I ususally plink with a Walther P-38 or Radom VIS35, but have had the opportunity to use a friend's NEW Remington 1911A1, and it is a fine piece of machinery. Even with the factory barrel and bushing, you can get 2" groups offhand at 25yds without too much squintin' and squeezin'.
I would imagine that with some MagSafe rounds, it would definitely be a stopper.

[Will C]

Interesting comments on perhaps John Browing's best design. As originally designed and produced during World War 1, the Model 1911 was finely finished with very tight manufacturing tolerances which resulted in excellent accuracy but occasional malfunction in the muddy trenches.

After the war, in the 1920's the pistol was redesigned as the Model 191lA-1 to correct some of the problems noted during WW1. The flat mainspring housing was replaced with an arched design to improve (?) pointability. The grip safety tang was lengthened and the hammer spur shortened to alleviated pinching of the hand by the hammer in recoil. The frame was milled out slightly behind the trigger and a shorter trigger was installed to help shooters with smaller hands.

The one thing that they didn't do was to install better sights. That was and is the major problem in shooting a GI issue .45 well without a consierable amount of training and practice.

I was present at Dam Neck in the mid 60's when some of the Navy's inventory of Model 1911 and Model 1911A-1 pistols were checked out prior to return to Colt for repair and rebuild. Just for curiousity some of us who were experienced .45 shooters took these "worn out" pistols to the range just to see how bad they were. Shooting GI 230 grain hardball ammo, we were suprised to see that even the worst ones were still capable of grouping in the 3" to 4" range at 25 yards which is good enough for your average combat use.

Since most all of our national pistol shooting records at Camp Perry were shot with Model 1911 type pistols, it should be obvious that there is nothing wrong with the basic design. Most of the stories about the inaccuracy of the Model 1911 series are repeated by folks who just didn't get the right kind of training.

[Andy J.]

I recall several trips to the Chesepeak Bay in Virginia for disposal of 1911A1 pistols, Ammo, and other surplus of the like. You name it, we threw it in the water. Much of this equiptment was still in good working condition just no records to justify why it was there.

[Richard Marksberry]

As a former Marine I never found a 1911-A1 that wasn't capable of staying inside 12" at 25 yards.

However I have found many once a year shooters that found it hard to even print on the paper.

I'm not impressed with the little 9mm Pea Shooters.

[Anthony Randall (Razorblade) SGT USMC (ret.) 0331/8532]

Well here's my couple of cent's into the matter. Having been in the Marine Corps as a grunt from 1979 thru 1996 I can say that I have had the pleasure of using the M1911A and the M9 for many years, not to toot my own horn I am a Expert Rifleman 10th Award and an Expert Pistol 7th Award, using the M1911A was my baptistism of fire when I first shot for score with hand me downs 1911's that we received from the Army, anyway when I first went to the pistol range we BZOed and then were allowed to use pasties to after we got our POA (point of aim) but that was only with the 1911A's I scoreed the very first time a High Expert, I then went to FAST Company M.C. Security Force Battalion where we received M9's the first in the Corps I might add and at Northwest, anyway the M9's are all right if you apply failure to stop drill's you know two to the chest one to the head in 6-9 seconds as we all had to do to graduate from school and we didn't have to worry about AD's unless you were a idiot while handling the M9 weapon. It was phased in only because of WM's and men with small hands plus it held 15 rounds, I have one no but I use Hydroshock and other "rounds" if you know what I mean for my personal carry. You can stay in the fight longer with 15 well aimed rounds versus 7 well aimed rounds. "Sight alignment sight picture, slow steady squeeze to the rear"....OOOhh Rahh!!

[Richard Marksberry]

Admirable Razorblade,

Though it concerns me that we keep repeating history deliberately. If you don't have HPs the 9 ain't a stopper when his adrenalin is pumping and determined to get to you. More rounds in the mag ain't the answer nor does it inspire better marksmanship from the new grunts. The M16 is another example of reducing recoil to reduce flinching but you are still packing the weight with less punch. Bring back the M14 and the 1911-A1 and give em something to really fight with.

As a matter of fact I hear that the .45 is back in trials again.

[Bob Wills]

Wow, got a lot of bitter "commentors" - so much so I went back and reread the article. When I first qualified with a 1911 (in 1971), I qualified a high expert. The second time I was lucky to qualify marksman. The difference was the second armory gun was very sloppy. I now own three 1911s, all are very tight and very accurate.

[Britt]

Interesting comment by wacurry... I am confused though as Mr Daniel does not present himself as either an expert on shooting or a crack shot, merely as someone who discovered one way to bring his groups down to a more reasonable size.

If wacurry has a personal grudge against Mr. Daniel, I suggest that this is the wrong venue in which to discuss it, perhaps another, more suitable venue could be found.

I was in the 10th Mountain Division from 86 - 89 (2/22 light infantry) and we were issued .45's qualified, then issued beretta's... all before 1990.

[Norvin Gandolph]

It is very interesting that wacurry has not responded to any of the criticizing being thrown his way...kinda like the guy who starts a bar fight and then sneaks out the back when it gets to hot.

Norvin
1st batt. 14th Inf.
an khe
rvn 70/71

[Richard Marksberry]

Come on guys, what you have here is a person that never did anything for his country eccept pay his taxes, maybe..

Either that or he's USAF and we know they can't shoot BB guns without closing their eyes and flinching.

[Noah Dillion]

Dajavu...
When I reported to my unit at Soc Trang Army Airfield in Nov 1968, Iwas sent to the range to qualify with the 45 cal.
I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it, so I went back and checked out a 38 and quailfied with it.
I always wondered why, I love to shoot, and have done so since I was old enough to pick up a Daisy "Red Rider".
Thanks for the answer to a 40 year old mystery...

[hank85713]

I dont know what the fuss is all about. I qualified with both the .38 and the .45 and you know what the difference was? Range and stopping power! The .38 was lighter and it could be thrown farther, the .45 was heavier so if it hit ya when it was thrown it would knock ya down quicker. In all honesty all military weapons leave a lot to be desired. I qual'd with a ruger .38, the cylinder was oval, had to turn it by had to get it into battery. .45s were loose but theyoriginal poster was right, if ya wanted to do better ya needed to either fix what ya had (lotsa luck there) or as one other poster did learn how to fire what ya had.

The guys critcizing the original poster just dont know, and the guys that talk about how great the issue weapons are has never been ther IMO. 1969 qualed with an M14, coulnt hit anything, thing was so clapped out the rear sight would not hold zero. we had better weapons on the bayonet course! M60 was so bad it would not fire more than 2-3 on burst, qualed by single shot. M16s no range, 300M target super elevate to get there, great up close. Know your weapons, BTW I got to be expert with all, just had to know the weapon.

Why the .38? Thats all aircrews could have, no spent shells in the cockpit to get jamed into the controls. Never did get to fire/qual with the 9mm, retired before the unit I was in got them in 94, as stated has no stopping power from what I have read, both mil and civ unless the individual is lightly clothed.

No expert, but did put up with gov't issue weapons for 24 years. Just remember everyone has an opinion and opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one of them too.

[Noah Dillion]

Second entry, after reading some very good comments I'd like to ask a question..
Being an old 3 year Army veteran, firing expert with high marks with both the M-16 and M-14.

How do these punks hit anything laying the weapon on its side and not aming at all?

I'm thankful to GOD that I was noever in the bush and confronted with the life/death "baptism by fire"

My hat is off to all of you who did.Mine happened during a mortar attack on the airfield, and at the time I was carrying a 12ga Savage pump (never qualified with it, just was issued it when I pulled reventment guard)

[Chris]

Shot expert as a PFC in the Corps in 1988 with a .45
BUT... they were all laid out on a table and I'd just read a Guns N Ammo article on barrel bushings. So, I grabbed 'em and shook 'em, listening and feeling for slop.
I got a good tight one and was one of only 2 Marine Corps pistol experts in my company.
Semper Fi!

[Brad]

I have fired thousands of rounds with a 45 from old Remingtons to more modern colts & their copies. The barrel/bushing/slide assy is critical to accuracy in my opinion. As a current military member our weapons get a lot of use in training and overseas. That is the cause of his worn parts, period. Buying his own parts is a bit extream, but if it worked more power to him. As far as the stopping power 45 over 9 anytime or any place. I would rather have known ability than empty the mag and hope the target falls down. All the vets out there know hitting a moving target thats trying to kill you is not as easy hitting paper. Shot placement is key to stopping any issue. The more power the better..45 is king

[Robert Galloway, LTC, USA Retired]

What a wild bunch. Some real ***holes. I owned a 1911 long before I came into the army (1976). It's a good weapon. The fact that the Army would have so many around in such bad shape and ready to issue is a shame. The M-16 is also a shame in my humble opinion. The .223 round was adopted, again in my opinion simply because so many green city recruits were unhappy with recoil. Rather than give them enough training to be proficient with a real weapon, the BB gun was adopted as the official arm. Again, just one man's opinion

[kenneth yeisley]

Have to get my 2 bits in here, I know that the 45 has great stoppin power but lets qualify that: twice, onec in japan and once in nam witnessed 45 wounds that penetrated the persons body but did little real damage. First ,in japan one man was assigned as "tail gunner" guarding a man from the stockade that was allowed on a field exercise,the shooter ,thinking the man had supposedly been messing with his girl fired a shot under the table at the man who was sitting at the right side of the table, the bullit struck him above the left hip bone, traveled through and nicked the right hip bone then struck an NCO in the ear lobe.the man was back for duty in 3 weeks,, The other as when one of my viet interpreters was cleaning his 45 ,it discharged and hit my viet scout in the upper right chest area,traveled through and exited the back. Yhu was back in 1 month.ON the other side of the coin I was using a thompson 45 when we were attacked in thick jungle and I hit 3 nva comming towards me at about 15 feet,. it sat all three back on their butts permanently, I only carried it twice, too heavy,,

[Richard Marksberry]

Typical,

Hank, a bullet never knocked anything down, that's cowboy talk. Kill yes, knockdown no.
Think about it 230 grains vs. 230 pounds.

Get hit and fold like a sack of potatoes. You don't fall back and tumble like a movie.

Couldn't hit anything with an M-14??? What, were you blindfolded or just Bullsh-----? Even the worst recruits I've seen could hit the black somewhere most of the time.

You really didn't QUAL. did you?

[Richard Marksberry]

Kenneth When were you in NAM?
What outfit?

[Daniel J Donnelly]

I was in Marine Corps 54-58 and an M.P. in San Diego.Cal. I fired Expert with a colt 45. there was nothing wrong with my cold.

[Daniel J Donnelly]

I was in Marine Corps 54-58 and an M.P. in San Diego.Cal. I fired Expert with a colt 45. there was nothing wrong with my cold.

[Daniel J.Donnelly]

I now fire on Marine Corps League pistol team, and fire a Kimber match.with all the great things. My son just back from Quwait fired my Kimber,and the Police Sgt. that runs the range said he wishes that my son would join the County Police.He said there is no one on the Police can shoot the bullseye out at 60 yards.like my son.

[Dan French]

In 1988 to 1990 I was a invited to the steel challenge.
Only the the top 200 shooters in the world are invited each year. The gun used by 90% of the shooters was non other than the Colt 45 automatic.
For knock down, reliability and any other test you would like to put it to it is and always has been the "King on the hill" Do you know why the U.S. Army and many police forces have gone to the 9mm?
It holds more rounds and because most of them shoot like you they need more bullets to hit any thing. If you are ever going to talk or write about a subject ever again I would suggest next time you do it about something you know at least a little about.
Sgt Dan French
2/327
Hawk Recon Platoon
101st Airborne

[Oz]

I never served in combat while in my sky blue uniform, but later worked as a civilian for the small arms test and development center for the Navy for some twelve years. Our work was good enough that SOCOM came to us for much of their small arms and accessories development. The 1911 is STILL the sidearm of choice for both those operators and for me. Mine is a Remington Rand much like the one Eric pulled from armory, but mine got "the treatment" as soon as it was mine.

For those who may be interested, S/N 0000016 M1911A1 is in the Navy's small arms museum at Crane, IN and could be put back into firing / issue condition in about two minutes. It was pulled off the chopping block because of its low S/N. Otherwise,its steel would have been shipped to Barretta to make pea shooters just like several tens of thousands of other 1911's. The "chopping block" was a 20 ton shear. Yup, cut 'em up and gave the steel to Barretta as part of the contract.

Even this civilian can hold a two inch group at 25 w/ my RemmyRand. Love it.

[Michael L Kelley]

I found this article interesting for a couple of reasons. First as an ex-company armour and CBR NCO I would of hung (figuratively) anyone who used non-goverment parts on a weapon that was under my care. This should not be done. If the weapon was out of spec and inaccurate above company level repair it should of been turned into a higher authority for repair or replacement. Period. The reason for some of the lose tolerances (which generally decrease accuracy) on a military .45 and one of it's great features is the ability to function under extreme adverse conditions including covered in mud and sand. Like the Energizer Bunny it will just keep on going. Parts from Brownells are made to improve a 1911A1 for civilian use and have a much tighter fit. Many of the parts have to be hand fitted using hones in the 2 -3000 grit. Next, during my ten years of service I found very few soldiers who could shoot their issue M-16 and next to no one had ever shot a handgun prior to military service. Heck be honest, most soldiers are 18, 19, 20 years of age to begin with and it is illegal to own a handgun under the age of 21. The .45 is considered to be one of the more difficult sidearms to become proficent with and the average soldier just cannot become an Anne Oakley during a 2 hour familarization course. No doubt many will disagree with these statements because of their one or two stories but I have seen hundreds of soldiers with their weapons and stand by these statements. Currently I have 4 different .45s all of high quality and inherently accurate and shoot every chance I get. But after almost 40 years of shooting .45s I only consider myself fair to good with one. With an occasional great day. Michael L Kelley, US Army, 1971 -1980.

[AZ-Stew former GMC USN]

Two things that haven't been mentioned here:

1. The issue 1911s have crappy triggers.

2. In pistol shooting, trigger control is EVERYTHING.

Whenever I took Seabees to the range for quals, the biggest problem was people who couldn't control the trigger. To many of them, the .45 kicked a lot. To others, they BELIEVED it kicked a lot (learned by rumor). In both cases, anticipation of perceived or actual (depending on the shooter) heavy recoil prevented them from being able to concentrate on trigger control.

I've had many a sailor tell me his .45 won't hit the target (they're all inaccurate, you know), but when I shot a demo for them they learned the pistol was quite capable. A reasonably good pistol shooter should be able to qualify at least Sharpshooter with any issue 1911.

My $0.02.

Regards,

Chief Stewart

[Jose G. Colon]

As a brand new 2LT in D Co 1/72 Armor in Camp Casey,Tongduchon, Korea in the summer of 1986, the company armorer told me to choose from the rack from the ones w/o tags. The 1911A1 that had minimun rattle when shaked was serial no. 1026834, with a Colt slide and barrel. At about 7 meters I was able to put a 2" 5 shot headshots with two strays on the neck of the silhouette. I was lucky to get one of the few good ones. Later I almost cause an international incident with the same pistol but that is another story. (No negligent discharge, but have you ever used a 1911A1 as a bottle opener in front of a Korean soldier?.............)

[Hank85713]

Mr Marksberry, evidently you cannot read or understand what you do read. I never said anything about cowboy shooting, what was an analogy was beyond you I guess. I first qualed with the winchester model 52, 22, then the M1 all military issue. tell ya what you go hit the black with a weapon zeroed for 12 up and about X right, have the rear peep travel down as you shoot and tell me what a sharpshooter you are. P;emty of guys bolo or qual with a bolo badge (marksman), but in 1969 we had some real fine weapons, and that is what this initial post was about, the crap that the soldiers have always had to put up with. I have an auto ord 45, good weapon, but I bought it new and have taken care of it, as most have said, a good quality weapon as when used as a personal weapon for whatever. take one that has been used to qual a couple of hundred folks, or ones that meet Mil Spec but is still worn you get as has been described by me and the others, and this is with any weapon. No the military does not mean to provide crappy weapons but as they are used, and still meet "specs" they are just recycled until they dont. and if you are the one that gets stuck with one that meets minimum serviceability specs well take it from there.

How many of you got a brand new m151 to drive from the motorpark, or a new UH-1 to thrash around? They all met specification for use, some were better some were worse, luck of the draw and I guess how tight you were with the armorer or the motor sgt.

[christopher vock]

Hard to be polite when reading wa curry's retort to a very interesting comment by Eric Daniel.
A lot of strange characters out there in them thar hills...I wish I still had my army issue colt '45

I purchased a new civil model some years back; still my favorite pistol and I have many in my collection. Back in 1962 (Ft. Dix) we did indeed have to disassemble/assemble our colts, burp guns & M1's blindfolded. (armorer, '63-'65, 275th Signal Co. Blockhouse, Paris, France)

Cheers

[christopher vock]

Hi,

I read last year in a european journal that the US Army was thinking of bringing back the Colt '45 ! Can anyone confirm?

Below find the comments of my buddy Larry, ex Nam fighter pilot (shot down over & lost for 5 days in the Parrot's Beak,Cambodia) & Colt affecionado

"Chris,

I used to shoot competitively. I have a pair of Colts, both accuratized from a California gunsmith, a standard configuration and a chop and channel for combat shooting. Anyone that ever did any competitive shooting knows about accuratizing the 1911. The Roger Manning Colt in those days cost about $1100 compared to about $200 for one out of the box.

Larry"

[BigDuke]

That's right I said it "All you Comp shooters are full of Iraqi's (S*it).
In my experience in a CQB situation (4) it's 10 feet or less everytime, so far, and by god when you're facing a Haji hell bent on revoking your membership to the planet a reflex shot to the chest with a Colt .45 ends the test PERIOD there's no
"Getting Up" they should have dumped all the M-9's in the bay they make great artifical reefs..

SCOUT'S OUT

[William S Birge]

Shooting is 10 percent weapon and 90 percent shooter. I served in the Corps from 1962 to 1983. My weapons of issue for the first seven years were the M1A1 gerand, the M14, then the M16. At the time I left boot camp I barely qualified as "Marksman." As time, training, and practice accrued I got my "Sharpshooter" then "Expert" badges. During these first seven years I "fam-fired" the M1911A1 .45 and did okay but not great. When I became a Staff-NCO, the .45 became my issue weapon. The first year I worked my way through "Markman, Sharpshooter, and Expert" again. I qualified "Expert" for the remainder of my time in the Corps because of training and practice. I only fired my .45 one time for real. I hit the little fart in the right heel and the power of the bullet flip him completely off his feet, putting him out of action.

[BigDuke]

That's right I said it "All you Comp shooters are full of Iraqi's (S*it).
In my experience in a CQB situation (4) it's 10 feet or less everytime, so far, and by god when you're facing a Haji hell bent on revoking your membership to the planet a reflex shot to the chest with a Colt .45 ends the test PERIOD there's no
"Getting Up" they should have dumped all the M-9's in the bay they make great artifical reefs..

SCOUT'S OUT

[Bob Johnson]

Back in 1960-61, I was assigned to the ARCOS station in Kodiak, Alaska. We had six or seven .45s, none of which were very accurate. However, by switching parts around over the year I was stationed there, I finally had a weapon that would at least shoot a decent pattern. I somehow knew the problem had something to do with the barrel, but didn't have the knowledge the story indicated the LT had.

[Eric]

wacurry you are a homo....Read the complete article before you talk crap.

[christopher vock]

wow! one thing is for sure everyone has an opinion on the '45.... a true love - hate relationship?
Chris V

another comment hereunder from my buddy Arvid.

"You have just answered a question I had in my mind about my 45. At least I could hit the target but grouping? the shots were all over the place. I was told if I ever had to use it, to shoot at the guys feet and watch for the spatter and the second shot correct your aim and you'll get him. Lucky for me, I never had to use it that way." Arvid Willen (USN - WW II)

[Mad 1]

Never had the pleasure of shooting the mil-issued 1911, but I can only assume that as with all of the other issued small arms one would never be able to achieve the maximum accuracy. The reason is simple – unless the weapon is new or is specifically assigned to an individual, then it has been used, abused, and poorly cleaned over and over and over… So it is no surprise that Mr. Daniel encountered an accuracy problem with his .45. Good article, though.

Question for all of the .45 caliber fans, as a .45 pistol owner myself, I believe that the caliber is excellent for home protection and close (real close) combat. However, in my opinion .40 would make a better military round due to higher velocity, better accuracy, and more energy, and decent stopping power. Also, I think if 1911s are to make a return in the military, the grip safety should be discarded – it’s not necessary and the more moving parts there are in a weapon, the more moving parts can break, jam, rust, etc… Nostalgic attachments to weapons of “better days” aside, any input?

- The Russian (every military needs at least one)

[TS Dunmire]

I was taught at age 12 that a good marksman learns the weapons strengths and exploits them then learns the weakness's and improves/masters them by compensating. At 13 I fired my Fathers 1911A1 and with a little practice I became extremely proficient with it. I was also taught a very healthy respect for weapons and their care. At 18 I joined the Marine Corps where we got to Fam-Fire the 9mm and the M1911A1. I had only fired the Baretta twice before but it left me feeling like Goliath with a rubber-band gun. However the 1911 had the punch needed. I have consistently fired High Sharpshooter or Expert with the M14, M16 and the M9 and my own 1911. But after a friend of mine got pounded by a "Tango" after shooting him 5 times with the M9 I would venture to say it is time to look at stopping power over rounds available. I have always felt that with the 1911 even if you shoot them in their big toe with a 1911 they arent coming back for seconds.
With that said, I think the orginal poster had the notion that Uncle Sam provides Servicemembers with the best equipment available. Try again. After 18 years and still counting I have learned that it isnt if you have the best...it is if you do the best with what you have.

USMC Sep 1989-Sep 1993
US Army Jan 1994-present

[Nathan Funderburk]

I think the idea of dumping all those 1911's into sanfrancisco bay is about the most depressing thing I've heard today.
Kudos to wacurry for being a jackass, there's got to be one of them in every location. I personally haven't shot a 1911, but I have some technical skill, and can imagine that a barrel that floats when the slide is full forward isn't very useful. (I have a browning 1922 that does that. It doesn't go out much.) But I think the important lesson here is that wacurry, despite his self-bolstering remarks, probably is the one who "couldn't put 10 rounds in the black at 50 yards if someone gave him a box full of ammunition and day to do it." (and I quote)
But seriosuly, pistols were never meant to be accurate at long distances, (past 50m) and pistols that are designed to that specification probably won't be practical in a pistol-correct enviroment. Say, in a house.
And as my grandfather, who pledged by the 1911, said when I asked him; "Didn't the japanese have crappy rifles on okinawa?"
"They kill you just as well."

[Phil]

I started out as a Unit Armorer 25 years ago and was eventually assigned to a MP Company in Hawaii. We had over a hundred 45's and a few 38 revolvers. I was able to order match grade parts thru the supply system. Over time, I put together a dozen good shootin 45's that everyone used for qualifications. As for daily carry the 38's never left the arms room.

[rporter]

To BW Jones' comment Oct 8, 2007. As the former officer in charge of the 11th coast guard district armory in alameda during the transition from the 1911A1 to the M9, i know that all .45's turned in were sent to the small arms repair facility in illinois. NO goverment issue weapons were ever dumped in the bay. On a side note: there were times when the FBI and other agencies brought confiscated weapons used in crimes to the federal armories to be cut, welded and destroyed. The scrap was then loaded on barges and dumped in the Pacific Ocean at undisclosed locations. If your coast guard cousin told you anything different he was swappin spit in a sea story. Roger that!!

[ski]

The origional story had army all over it. I qualed exp. w/45 even as sloppy as some said they were out of the armory up until the 92 came along. Berreta should have made a 45 version too. The 45 cannot get back into service fast enough as far as I am concerned. Anyway, there has never been a more perfect firearm in regards to reliability, accuracy, hit results and just down right tough as the 1911 in .45. I have fired in both competition and anger and still carry it today...

SF,
ski

[PFC Wilson]

I entered the service a little late to play with the .45, but did qual with a 9mm. What the hell were they thinking when the bought the damn things? That little popgun was almost as reliable as my M-16, which means I had about a 50% chance of making it work right.
Someone posted a comment a while ago that most pistols weren't made for shooting beyond 50 feet. I did find little custom job a while back that fires a .223, and takes an M-16 30 round mag. I'll be damned if it wasn't a better shooter than the M-16A2 I used in basic. Too much muzzle velocity to use safely for home defense, but fun nonetheless. Funny too, when you take it to a civilian rifle range and get a tighter group than the dude with an AR-15 at 150m

[Rafael Pabon]

Let,s all remember that we are talking about the pistol design and reliability. The .45ACP ammunition is great on any pistol or revolver. By many standards any ammunition that the caliber start with a "4" it is good.

[Bachrach]

As I remember it the services, except for a few spec ops types switched to the Beretta in the early to mid 80's. As I recall going through boot camp, we were the last platoon to fire the 1911A1 and when we qualified in the fleet we used the 9mm. I talked to a couple of my buddies who were and still are armorers for the Army and they don't know how any active duty non-spec ops unit member qualified on the 1911A1 in the '90s. Guess also the Army is a lot more lax on modifing your qual weapon than the Corps as that would not only have gotten us pulled off the range but sent up for office hours before the CO most ricky tick. As far as the 1911 goes, I agree with the one write who said the accuracy or inaccuracy of that weapon was only as good or as bad as the person pulling the trigger. The first time I fired the .45 in boot camp, the weapon was stamped on the slide as manufactured in the 1950s. Yeah, the barrel was sloppy and yeah it was well used, but I not only qualified but shot expert with it.

[William Stewart]

Most of you are right the 92F is a Sports car but like one it needs allot of care and is not a Tank like the 45.,Hand guns are like a good knife close in fighting but if you are not trained there worthless. I carried my 45. in the NAVY and I own one now. As for weight gos I would not go swimming with it around my neck but on the job I knew it was there. Pretty much any pistol at close rang will kill you but for Combat that is another school of thought. Most of the Sailors that I stood watch with only needed the 38cal. because they were so stupid you could'nt trust them with a ROCK.

[waldo]

Any confirmation that the dumped 1911's actually hit the Bay? ? ?

[hwpearson md]

i was an or tech in the usaf in the early 60s...don't laugh, this is no combat tale. i was a constant 298 shot with the carbine , but only a torso hit with the .45...However....i worked on an army bunker who was shot once in the gut by an mp...let me tell you, you only need to be a torso hitter..his intestines looked like rats had been at them..don't know how he did, but i'll take the .45 as a stopping sidearm and take my chances with my poor marksmanship..hopefully i won't ever need it...thanks for all you guys standing up.

[tommy sargent]

Thanks to Mr. Daniel and also to Mr. James Smith. Now I know why, despite easy hands and 20/10 eyesight, I rated a mere Marksman with the 1911 back in 1979. I swore to the range officer that I could see the rounds arcing down and away, and he said I was crazy.

[tommy sargent]

Thanks to Mr. Daniel and also to Mr. James Smith. Now I know why, despite easy hands and 20/10 eyesight, I rated a mere Marksman with the 1911 back in 1979. I swore to the range officer that I could see the rounds arcing down and away, and he said I was crazy.

[bcarter]

wacurry has sucked his mother's unit since 1974.

i was on a destroyer until '96 and we had a bunch of very used 1911s but they were still pretty accurate. as a matter of fact we still had m14s. i guess we got all of the hand-me-downs.

[tgwright dds]

The arguments made bring back a lot of memories from duty with the Marines out of LeJeune in the early 70's. I was assigned to Force Troops and stationed with the Engineers at Court House Bay. Often at lunch the staff went to the range and needed a qualified medical type there to be allowed to shoot.

I had been shooting and reloading since I was twelve, so I figured that if I wanted to get some range time, this might be the only way this newly minted Navy Dentist might get to go. I went to the battalion armor and was given a vintage 1911. It looked like it had been through WWII, Korea and Viet Nam. The actual serial number showed manufacture in 1943.

The first time I shot it, I couldn't put a round on paper at 25 yards. A gunny took pity on me and we stripped it down and spent some time working on the action. After that it shot consistently about six inches low at the 5 o'clock position.

After putting hundreds of rounds through that pistol I knew what it would and could do, and qualified that year and the next expert under Marine regs. When I deployed I managed to carry it with me during that 7.5 months.

It wasn't beautiful, and every one who shot it thought it was a "dog", but it was my dog though, and I just wish I could have carried it with with me during my next 26 years of active duty.

Because of that pistol I now has three of similar vintage, and they have a special place among the guns I own. Given the choice between carrying any one of the three and my Browning Hi Power, the 1911's win every time.

[shrapmagnet]

Most everyone here is at least partially right. Weapons that flop around will not be as accurate as tight ones. If they were, it would be a lot easier and cheaper to build sloppy weapons.Also, the govt. M1911 is not a good standard issue weapon for the following reasons:high recoil,too bulky for smaller operators,low capacity,non-NATO compatability, not sufficiently idiot-proof in terms of safety,and others.Many issues with the original design features not mentioned such as crappy sights, safety levers, etc can be corrected at considerable time and expense by the CORRECT fitting of the many good parts vailable on the custom aftermarket.Most of the other problems can be corrected with training. Until the "mainstream" army (i cant speak for the rest of the services because i dont know) addresses all of the issues, there wont be a solution. It is also true that an inept operator who has a weapon capable of firing and a single round of ammo will figure out a way to have an accident with it if given the opportunity to do so. The custom 1911 is my personal favorite. But, its not the best for MOST servicemembers. I accept this as a unchangeable fact.The M9 is not the ideal solution for a number of reasons, but we are stuck with it for the forseeable future, for better or worse. I have used a 9mm handgun twice in the real world. Both times it was used due to tactical necesity and the individuals were struck in the head, so i dont think it matters what caliber the weapon was or the bullet type or for that matter which make/model of weapon was used. I have no tales of 9mm failure to offer.The 45 ACP is a superior cartrige. It seems to me the best answer is a new design (possibly in 45) that will do the job efficiently and be as user-friendly as possible. Many designs are available now that are far superior to the M9 from a number of manufacturers, US and foreign.Bottom line is the operators will just have to sit and wait for whats next and hope the layers of procurement dont screw us again. If anyone cares, I am a SF weapons sgt and former SF instructor, 20 years on the job.

[Bill Edwards]

I can attest to a similar scenario. I was stationed at Ord from 87 to 90, and purchased a Ballestar Molina .45. An Argentinian version of the 1911, trophy from teh Faulklin Island incident. I bought one for my father as well. Has some trinium sights mounted on his. Mine shot nice and tight, so I thought, until I went to the Western Gun Show here in San Diego, and purhased everything Daniel did, with the exception of a barrell bushing compensator. My father and I hand load, and wanted to push some FPS. Talk about bringing that grouping tight! But what do you expect? You take a used gun, and typically Gov't issue has been used once or twice (save My A2 in OIT. Brand spankin new!) at least... The Ninjas at Ord are know for makin gear work on the fly. tightening up a 1911, during that time frame (even though the M9's WERE being introduced then) is entirely not only feasible, but typical if you were a soldier used to the necessity of getting the job done.

Kudos, Daniel-

Ninja's We Own The Night
A 3/17th INF, 7th ID

[the one captain hook fears, hay captain hook!!]

As it turns out we all like the guns we can all shoot well,just like when you choose a lover.

[the one captain hook fears, hay captain hook!!]

As it turns out we all like the guns we can all shoot well,just like when you choose a lover.

[John Gullo]

To all you that understand a simple fact, If you can hit anything smaller than a beer can with a rattle trap 45 or can not keep a couple in the black at 500 hundred meters with a M-14 then you couldn´t hit your ass with both hands. As high rifleman out of Platoon 2242 in 1966 and a shooter from Montana I must say that no one has mentioned a Colt match, I had my own personnel 45acp (automatic colt pistol) for you wanna Be's and an M14 when we got to Nam in Sept. 1967, the switch to the 223 was only manufacturer problems, the M-14 should be replaced for the M-16 or Armalite t-10´s, M-16 design type 308 and who ever put down the M-60 was never a 0331. To put it philosophically, Its better to be thought a fool than to speak and leave no doubt, Semper Fi L/cpl John Gullo USMC 2231722

[Sgt.(Ret) Mike G]

The reason there are 14 rnds in the M-9 is because it takes twice the amount of lead to do what ol' slabsides can do with 7!! Viet Nam River Rat 70-71,AFPD,Seattle 72-73. Warchild!

[motorcycle_dan]

Interesting how much passion is brought to light about the 1911 pistol. I have personally seen only one Pistol not capable of <3" groups at 25 yards. It was shot with lots of lead bullets with poor lube or too fast. Once the bore was cleaned of lead, it shot 3" groups at 25yd. I've seen rack grade guns that rattled like a sack of bolts. Shoot great and keep shooting. I shoot competitively now and shoot a 1911. I don't believe "knock down" power has anything to do with a real fire fight. The goal is to poke enough holes in the target to lower their blood pressure to a point they are no longer a threat in the fight. Recoil and knock down power are equal and opposite. If it can knock them down, You'd have go get back up and verify that. My humble snipe opinion.
GSCS USN ret. (the last group to give up the .45)

[Gary Kurzawa]

I too have shot the 45 ACP to great extent and with confidence that I will be able to hit what I am shooting at the first time. My 45 is a US Navy issue from 1913. Yes, the barrel had to be replaced and some other small parts but it is a good shooter and as a defender I would not be without it.

[clint sullivan]

I don't think he can shoot. I had a 1911 when I was in the army in 1982 and qualified expert, and my drill instructer in basic put a shot group of 7 rounds in the bottom of a styro foam coffee cup at 25 meters with an off the rack amory issued weapon. This Eric Daniel is not only an idiot that can't shoot but has insulted anyone that can. And that says nothing about the Lt. that was "helping" him. Clint Sullivan

[charles voos]

Great article when you can generate 99 comments. Way to go
cjv USN retired

[Don P]

It has been some years since I shot the Colt .45 for qualifying. I do admit that when we switched to the 9mm I started scoring higher. Now that the USCG has switched from the 9mm to the SIG .40 we now have the accuracy of the 9mm with almost the same knockdown as the old Colt 45. DOD should follow DHS and switch.

[Richard Marksberry]

Hey Motorcycle Dan,
I enjoyed hearing about your days as a bench rest shooter.

However, you’re right about knockdown power.

The design of the .45 ACP with the 230 gr FMJ was to expend its energy 1/2 to 3/4 of the way through the body. That would be about or between 300 and 400 Ft.lbs. of energy.

The only blood pressure it lowers is on the shooter who puts his adversary down.

It will not knock anything down accept tin plates and light objects, certainly not people. If so it would be as you say (Paraphrasing) “picking yourself up to see what you hit”

But it will kill people much better than most any other cartridges assuming they are not wearing body armor. I’ve always found the Gov. issue to be more than adequate.

[Merriweather Jones]

The most of these people have no idea what they are talking about. Take it from me, an expert. The 45 is a fine weapon that gets the job done. If anyone in the military had half a brain they would readopt it as the service weapon. Belive me it will shoot well if you know what you are doing.

[Pappy]

I learned small arms at my father & brother's knees as a little boy. M-1911 & S&W 1917 .45ACP were the tools. Later on the 82d Pistol Team we were told to go back to the arms room & get the quietest one. That one was taken down to the bare frame and then we started to do the frame/slide, bbl, hood,link and bushing replacements with match issue parts. Sights "had" to remain the same, which sucked. A new recoil spring & mainspring did wonders. When I got to VN I carried my personally owned weapon. The old M-1917 S&W with half moon clips. Even got my photo in the papers with it while doing a tunnel. After VN I went back to M-1911A1, as issued, from the arms room. Subsequently I became a shooter & reloader doing competition with the M-1911A1 styles that I bought & modified or self built with custom frames & parts. I regularly do the NRA 25/50 yd matches & shoot @ 250+ - because I suck at 50 yds. One of my team guys brought out his array to the range for exercise. My daughter was @ 12 at the time. She did the .22, .32, .380, .38, 9mm, 45ACP & .44 mag. Her choice for the rest of the day was a .45ACP Para Ord that I built with a Colt Officers top. 13 rd double stack with a 12 year old little girl tearing the center out of combat targets at 7M & 10 ft. What all the above postings tend to leave out is the M-1911, as a trench proof gun, is wonderful. Stick it up close and bang. Same when I used the S&W .45 in the tunnels. IT'S A PISTOL / CARTRIDGE COMBINATION FOR COMBAT. It was made to function all the time and blow big holes in people. Some dork somewhere said "We must qualify." Somebody forgot that frames, slides, bbls & all the other stuff wears a lot over years of continuous field stripping and limited shooting plus poor maintenance then gives it to "Joe" & expects him to shoot Expert at 25 yards with a 10 yd gun without any modification at all. Any modified 1911 style platform will produce better accuracy with better parts. It's a no brainer. If somebody can get away with switching out parts or doing frame/slide work to make an issue piece do better good for them. Just remember that when the tolerances tighten up to match standard it's no longer a people puncher -it's a paper puncher and requires a significantly higher amount of maintenance. As for me, when I last shot a man it was with a .223 at a longer range than I shot the previous one with a .45. The .45 did a better job of putting him down in one shot that the .223 did, 3 actually. Power. That's one of the reasons the .45 is coming back over the 9MM also. If one actually measures perceived recoil the 45 is softer and longer than a 9mm. The 9, although a smaller cartridge, it's recoil is shorter, sharper and people expect it. Probably the worst case is that "everybody knows the 45 is big, so it recoils more, so I should push forward and down when I yank on the trigger" thing. The LEO's have found out the old Elmer Keith statement is true: "If it doesn't start with a 4 it's too small." When the services get new .45s things will be better. I just hope the Marksmanship training is better than a familiarization DVD then fire for qualification. At least starting out the "Joes" will not have to swap out parts to make better shooters. Oh, yes. One final thing: At the last Close Quarters Combat Instructors "bone up" I attended at the Special Warfare Center at Ft Bragg it was reiterated that the old double tap was no longer good with the 9MM unless it was 2 good head shots only. If not do 2 Center of mass & one in the mouth to eyeball region. New .45s are the best deal all around. Leave the 9s for NATO work or inter-country ammo use, if required, but get new .45s for pete's sake!

[KevinK]

In the 80's I carried a colt in Centeral America. I also carried a 12guage shotgun. In 3 different fire fights I used both. They worked. I came home alive.

[Richard Marksberry]

Pappy,
1911
Good that you brought up the trench condition. Yes it (1911) has probably been used there more than anywhere else except Perhaps in house to house.

The 1917 S&W is still a wonderful piece. with ACP or Auto Rim. I used one myself but my hand is somewhat small so I cocked it most of the time. Colt also produced the 1917 .45 but in my opinion it was not as strong or dependable. You might recall from history rotation from .45 to .38 and back to .45 and now .38/9mm and here we go again. Go to .45 and stay there. I'm sick of TFXs, Edsels, people who couldn't hit their own asses with a paddle and Popguns.

[chills1994]

Wow! This has been quite the barn burner of a topic. I won't get into the heated debate of the 1911 vs. the M9.

Pardon me while I shamelessly plug my hat mounted camera first person shooting videos. The latest videos of are of USPSA's Missouri Fall Classic Match. It was my first major USPSA match ever.

A'yup, I'm shooting a Beretta but in .40 and downloaded to about a 135 power factor (bullet weight in grains times muzzle velocity).

Here's the link:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=posercam

[gnienhuis]

Nice to see so many compliments for the "old" 1911. Got to use one at the range when a Calif NG medevac medic, and loved it. Got one for myself, and took cop range training with it. Later as a 1SG in Army Reserve, went on the line with it after the Battallion officers & CSM fired theirs. The CSM was an ex-cop, so he did OK, but as I told the LtCol, the officers would have been dead in combat. They couldn't shoot, and they didn't know how to reload fast. They asked me to show them, and one of the drill sergeants ran me through the positions. I had a crowd around me at the end. Most of my rounds hit the 25 m. target within a 3" circle, no matter which position I was in, or how fast I fired. That one is still my weapon of choice for self defense. Also bought my wife, also now an Army Reserve MSG, one of the Springfield basic GI 45's last year. She knows how to shoot it well too. I know some of the old WWI/II 45s got a bit worn and sloppy, but at 7 yds they would still do the job. It's no wonder that even though today's troops are issued the 9mm, Special Ops stays with 45s.

[Nathan Funderburk]

As for stopping power, it very much is a factor in ballistic design.

I'd pay to see any person try to stand up to 400 foot pounds of energy, spread over an area of about four square inches, and dissapating over a lenght of six inches in a fraction of a second.
You can try it at home too!
have a friend place a 2x2 wood spar against your chest, then hit it with a hammer at 400 foot-pounds of energy.
No please don't do that.
It's that kind of force that, if it doesn't kill you, will certainly put you out of conscious commission for a while.
If stopping power weren't a facor then we'd all fight wars with 22lr, because it's cheap. Not that the M4-a1 or ar15 isn't just a .22 on stereroids. It's just nice to know that your bullet is going to pound the hell out of the enemy. Isn't that what we're trying to say here?

[Richard Beck]

Well now, lets hear aabout the M1 garand. As an old timer I quess I think I would rather have the 1911 colt and the M1 garand today.
MSgt USMC

[CRAIG FOX AKA GUNNY]

Has anyone out there ever hear of Kimber USA? The 1911 is a body stopper and was designed for close range and to shot a cone of fire of 6 inches, a standard issue that is. Someone said 7 feet normal combat range, I'm sure that is correct because its the average for law enforcement shooting. The M9 is nice for the double tap and I saw Force Recon fire this daily while on ship during West Pac. Their 1911's were worked on, not standard rack pistols. I taught thosands of Marines marksmanship, shot NRA matches and now personal carry revolvers and automatic pistols. Bottom line you must be one with the weapon and apply BRASS evrytime, even though it only takes a second. Before all that one must have a good hold on the pistol to do the business. One who draws and the weapon flies in the air and nothing but a -- ---- look on their face. At Div MTU they let me go to matches and teach myself how to shoot, I wasn't part of the Div Team, but from time to time some would share and I'd learned. During lunch I'd go to a open range and shoot a couple boxes of hardball. I was a young Sgt., this one time I was shooting next to a SSgt. who had a bad day with his rack pistol. He was shooting everywhere but his target. He made a comment he would be able to shoot better if he had a pistol like mine. I said " Here! You still have to apply marksmanship" He gave me his psitol and ask ne to check it out. With his pistol I shot 5 time fire shots and had a 3 inch group at 25 yards. He shot my pistol and continued to shot the 15 yard line and in front of his target. It seems its always about the basics...

[Nathan Funderburk]

Mr. Beck-
Definitely, the garand is one of my favourites. It is an all around phenominal weapon. Right up there with the Mosin Nagant and Mauser in accuracy.
Unfortunately, due to US regulations, rifle calibers above 6.8mm are too high recoil for small-framed enlisted peoples. Sad, isn't it?

[Oz]

As the CG OIC stated, all those fine sidearms met their end in the small arms repair facility, in Indiana, though, not Illinois, and certainly not at Alameda.

[Kelly Schanzenbach]

I have a Remington 1911A1 issued as "Captured Enemy Equipment" issued in Norway, 1945. With a 'micro' barrel and bushing, I have shot it in Second Army and Camp Perry matches. Before I had it accurized, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but with the new barrel and bushing, I was putting 4 out of 5 in the black. Carried a S&W pea-
shooter in Nam as a helicopter
pilot; sure missed the heavy
artillery 45. In 1943, an old
MSG told me, "You hit where you aim".

[Kelly Schanzenbach]

I have a Remington 1911A1 issued as "Captured Enemy Equipment" issued in Norway, 1945. With a 'micro' barrel and bushing, I have shot it in Second Army and Camp Perry matches. Before I had it accurized, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but with the new barrel and bushing, I was putting 4 out of 5 in the black. Carried a S&W pea-
shooter in Nam as a helicopter
pilot; sure missed the heavy
artillery 45. In 1943, an old
MSG told me, "You hit where you aim".

[Kelly Schanzenbach]

I have a Remington 1911A1 issued as "Captured Enemy Equipment" issued in Norway, 1945. With a 'micro' barrel and bushing, I have shot it in Second Army and Camp Perry matches. Before I had it accurized, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but with the new barrel and bushing, I was putting 4 out of 5 in the black. Carried a S&W pea-
shooter in Nam as a helicopter
pilot; sure missed the heavy
artillery 45. In 1943, an old
MSG told me, "You hit where you aim".

[Richard Marksberry]

Nathan, it isn't a matter of standing up to it. You are not shooting a 10# sledge hammer out the barrel. It is simple to prove. Take a 50# block of clay 12"x10"x25" tall and shoot it with your .45. Trust me, it ain't going nowhere. It especially isn't going to tumble or flip or jump into the air. Hang it from a poast and it will just bearly swing. Where do you get this stuff? Are you one of those guys that give non shooters a reason to believe the cr-p Hollywood spits out?
You need to communicate with OZ the Mosin Nagant agent and swap dreams.

[Richard Marksberry]

Mr. Beck,

You are right, there should be an M1 Garand forum. I cut my teeth on them in the Corps.

Never met a Garand I didn't like.

[Butch Govoni]

Re: Richard Marksberry's comment "poor mouthing" the Air Force and their shooting skills. I take issue with your comments slighting anybodys branch of the service! We all stood the call and served our country regardless of which branch of the service it might have been! It's bad enough to get berated by all the politicians and bleeding hearts but from a fellow bother-in-arms, that's not called for or necessary! And yeah I spent my time in the Air Force and I am damn proud of it! And by the way I know some expert Air Force marksmen that could probably put a round in your ass and out your big mouth and still put it in the black at 25M.

Butch
USAF 64-73, Viet Nam vet
Duty, Honor, Country

[dddaddy01]

As a curator and a Marine I find it hard to swallow that a Remington Rand would have been in service at that time due to the fact so few were made.

[joeymaclover]

I can remember having a Colt 45 as an assistant gunner in the 4.2in plt. The lower receiver was manufactured by Ithaca Gun Co. It was accurate and reliable. Sometime later the lower receiver was switched out to a Remington lower receiver, much to my dismay. It seem not to fire as well on the ranges. I guess some knuckleheads were cleaning them and perhaps switch some of the parts. I can see why many of them(M1911's) wouldn't be as accurate.

Back in the "50's", while assigned to the Norfolk Naval Air Station, I was sent to the range to fire weapons and being a "hillbilly" who grew up hunting and such, since knee high to a grasshopper, I did above average with the 45 and other weapons I was given to f