Fighting Knives 101

Submitted by C.O. Jones

Gerber knives are very sturdy and well-made. That having been said, they have also always been too gimmicky for my taste and most, if not all, have typically been considered wannabe knives by real professionals who use knives. There are only two killing knives I'd consider:

1. The old Army fighting knife with a blade that's just like the issue Colt M-16 bayonet without the rifle hook-up. This knife has a sturdy, curved, dagger point, and it's very smooth with a sure-grip handle in both the old leather rings and the newer rubber rings from Ontario Knife. It doesn't jam between the ribs and is a perfect ear-canal knife. If you are a pro, you'll know what I mean.

2. Is the Tanto; although the Tanto is more geared for outright fighting, it's also a great rib-stabbing and cutting knife, and also an excellent ear-canal knife. I probably shouldn't say this, but these knives also cut through bullet-proof vests like they were butter, as long as they don't hit the ceramic plate. Even then, if they slide off of it while you are still pushing on it, they can still do some terrible damage.

The Ka-Bar of Marine fame requires too much brute force to make it work in too many circumstances, but it might be something I'd consider if I was forced to do so. That's it for killing knives.

For working knives, there is nothing like the bulky and heavy Victorinox Swiss Army Champ. Not Wenger, but specifically Victorinox. It's worth many times its weight in gold, if you have ever needed a really great working knife while out in the bush. One of my sons once cut a piece of tool steel with the hacksaw in one of my old Swiss Champs and didn't damage the knife!

Gerber knives, with all those candy-ass serrations and gimmicks are more geared for the fire-rescue unit than the fighting man. I'd like to see anyone stick one into someone else's ribs without getting the serrations stuck in between them. Yes, you can do it, if you turn it horizontally going in and coming out, but in a fight for life and limb, who the hell knows how they are sticking a knife into someone else? Sideways, upside down, it's all the same when the chips are down. A real professional, chock-full of adrenalin, with a knife stuck three inches deep between ribs will still easily kill you without a second thought while you determine how you'll get your knife back. (To free it, you have to violently pull it up or down to break a rib. By the time you decide to do this, you might be dead. Having tremendously injured the other guy is immaterial to your being dead.)

The guy who said that the aluminum handle would be bad for both cold weather and not to be left in the sun was absolutely correct. In very cold weather it will freeze to your hand and having been in the tropical sun for any length of time, you wouldn't be able to hold it in your bare hand. The guy who talked about wrapping a handle with 550 cord (parachute cord) was absolutely correct too, except that before you wrap the handle, you take out the guts, so the cord lays flatter and ties better over the handle. If you want to make it better, twist the empty cord as you tie it and create a greater gripping surface. It's not about making it stick to your hand, but about creating friction so that under any and all circumstances, including blood, gore and slime, you will be able to maintain a secure grip on your weapon. I gave my wife a Cold Steel Tanto with a 550 cord-wrapped handle some years ago and she loves it. She says it's a 'pretty' knife, as opposed to my old U.S. Army fighting knife, which she says is a 'nothing killer and a pirate knife.' I love it. My children all say they'd rather meet me at night in a dark alley than to do the same with their mother. I'm very proud of the way I trained her, especially having taught her how to overcome female deficiencies in fighting men, something a majority of women have not been taught, consequently, when the chips are down they lose. It's a shame. Me

ED – The only reference to an old, “bayonet-style” fighting knife offered by the Ontario Knife Company was the SP3-M7 knife (I’ve included the picture above) which features a 6 ¾” blade (11 1/8” overall.)  I hope this is what you were referring to.  If not, let me know and I’ll update this posting.

Regarding your comments about the utility of the “skull crusher” point you see on many knives (the Gerber Yari II or the SP3, for example) I agree with you that a pointed “crusher” will be much more effective in a fighting situation, than would a flat basher like the Ka-bar.  For me though, as the poster child for the “non-knife fighter” community, if push ever came to shove, I’d probably reach for a cinder block as a means of self-defense rather than a “professional” fighting knife (I’ll never hit the ear canal, but I’ll probably get the guy’s head with my brick.)

Regarding the use of the 550 cord, I agree, you need to strip the handle down to create a smooth wrapping surface.  With my kukri I sanded down the handle, with the Yari II I wrapped the forged aluminum handle with athletic tape to “fill in” the holes, and then wrapped it.  For me, I like to leave the core threads in the OD sheath, to give the material better absorbency.  One thing I found that worked real well was leather bootlaces.  They wrap well and they grip well.  Unfortunately, they are also porous and I was concerned about how to clean the knife up after getting it “contaminated.”  So I went with the 550 cord.

Comments

[Simon]

I think the "taking out the guts" comment regarding 550 cord was aimed at gutting the cord (i.e. taking out the inner strands and just use the wrapping) not the knife.

[Eric Daniel]

Simon,

Wow, I hadn't thought of it that way, but you are probably correct.

[Kilroy]

Ever read "House to House?" Gerbers are quite capable of killing, even the folding ones.
You write this artice like you have a chip on your shoulder. I'm about to tick you off though: You don't know what you're talking about. What's this ear-canal crap? You've never been in a knife fight in your life. Wrap the handle with 550 so you can keep your grip with all the blood on the grip? Please. You've never seen a knife with more than grape jelly on it. 550 cord would asorb any contaminants, and how would you clean it? Try something non-porus for a handle.
Swiss army knives can't be opened quickly, and the tools are small. CRKT zilla-tool would be more appropriate. As for cutting tool steel, that's BS. It wasn't tool steel.
http://www.gerbergear.com/product.php?model=1629 Is this what you call a gimicky candy-ass knife?
I hereby label you a n00b.

[Jarhead]

I'm with Kilroy. Good luck killing someone with a knife through the ear - too much bone mass to stop you from reaching brain. This guy's a goon.

A knife is just about the most useless thing for a fight - in nearly all cases it causes a slow wound. Grab a 2x4, a brick, or a barstool instead.

[not a doktor]

or the jawbone of an ass

[Hugo]

Through the ear - that's a new one. Used to be through the back of the neck or behind the windpipe and outward.

By the sounds of it real soldiers should be equipped with a brick!

[G-Dog]

I must agree with C.O. Jones. Gerber does not make a decent fighting knife, but instead all theirs are for wannabes. Way too many doodads and I question the quality and feel as well. Serrations have no place on a fighting knife either, a sharp plain edge will cut/slice anything a serrated blade will and is easier to sharpen (for this reason most serrated blades I have seen are way too dull. Go plain edge but keep it sharp). One last point to make everyone mad, there is no "perfect" fighting knife (or knife for that matter, that is a good excuse for buying just one more) but a few top contenders to allow for personal preference. Pick one and practice/use/work with it enough it becomes a part of your body.

[C.O. Jones]

1. Yes, Simon is correct and I was not as explicit as I should have been. Take out the inner strands of the parachute cord before you wrap it and it will not only tie better, but lay better on the handle. The other part was to twist it as you wrap it to give you some very useful thin ridges that are absolutely non-slip.

2. Kilroy, I’ve only been teaching this stuff for 22 years. Gerbers are perfectly capable of killing, but so is my stainless steel Parker pen, the point is not whether you can kill with it, but how efficiently you can do so. The only decent Gerber killing knife is the original, patterned after the Sykes-Fairbairn and the U.S. Army M-3 Trench knife, which is the knife I referred to as the ‘old Army fighting knife,’ which was known as the Gerber Mark II, of course, without the serrations.

I know you don’t know this, but if you put your finger behind your ear-lobe and press, you find a ‘hole’ there. That is the so-called ear-canal of killing fame. There are only three places where you can stab someone once and they don’t scream, and up the ear canal is one of them, which scrambles the stabee’s brain in one fell swoop. After all, we are not talking about ‘fighting’ here, but specifically, what constitutes a good killing knife.

550 Cord does not ‘absorb’ any contaminants, per say. It’s 100% plastic, and if & when it gets blood, or anything else on it, you clean it, just like you clean your rifle sling or anything else you need to clean in your gear. The point is to secure a non-slip, life-saving grip when you need it, not to be able to lay it out for inspection at the barracks where you probably spent your time.

I won’t argue with you about the Swiss Army knife, after all, just like with the ‘killing’ knife, it’s an individual choice, or call you a dunce.

3. Jarhead, your comment makes me think you are a REMF (pogie, I think, in Marine language. We are not talking about a drunken brawl at the local bar. We are talking about killing, preferably quietly, in the field, and personally, I’d rather not stand toe to toe with another trained fighter under any circumstances. There’s no profit in it, like killing a trained dog up close; you can do it, but you are always going to get hurt in the process…

But still, a hush-puppy is much more efficient, if you happen to have one. Do you know what a hush-puppy is?

4. G-Dog, what you said about ‘perfect’ fighting knives would have been the next thing I would have said. The only reason I discuss them at all is to try to teach those who don’t know, especially kids, that their choices don’t eventually cost them their lives.

5. Ed, cool kukri idea. I like it.

And that’s the end of me on this subject! Thank you all!

[BOOMER]

Mark 22 "Hush Puppy" silenced pistol...

Lol

[Rhys]

Frankly I'd take a P'07 bayonet on the end of a SMLE over a knife in the hand during an all out fight, if it's not going your way just pull the trigger.

[Eric Daniel]

That would be the Rifle Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield in .303 (7.7x56mm R)

[Jls Cnsdn]

Mr. Jones,

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on many points.

While you have restated\modified some of your statements already, I do not believe that you fully understand the role of knives in modern warfare. As well, I do not believe you are well acquainted with the professionals involved with the business of war, based on your statements.

I believe that you are putting out disinformation, that while not dangerous to the professionals of arms, is contrary to the education of others.

I would like to thank you for the condescension shown to those commenting with their opinions.

Take care,
Jls Cnsdn

[kiwi soldier.]

Hi we dont use knive's we use something that we never forget to take with us our hands, and when you take a knife off someone and kill them with it you havnt got time to read what brand of knife it is.

[Chaplain Paul]

I do not claim to have used an edged weapon on a human. I have however used my Gerber MK II, with serrations, on many deer and pronghorn antelope. I have never had it "stick" on the serrations at any time. I do not doubt that it could happen if the blade were twisted in between the ribs.

As with all other "Fighting Knives" I have seen, and from the experience of handling them with my hands covered in blood (which happens when you are field dressing animals) I can express an informed opinion. The rubberized handles with "nubs" and finger grooves handle far better than those that are smooth and of hard plastic, leather, or metal. I have used Para-cord wrapped in several configurations on differant knives. It was better than the metal or hard plastic, but about the same as leather. And it cleaned up as well as well-cared for leather will.

[Blacknight]

C.O. Jones,

How wonderful to see another armchir commando spouting off the wisdom he has picked up from multiple nights of Counterstrike, Splinter Cell, and, of course, Call of Duty 4. Cannot wait till you return from fragging some tangos so you can tell us why you consider the "deagle" to be the ultimate "killing pistol" of our time.

[Brizmo]

Blacknight - the deagle, that's hilarious. I make it a rule not to participate in flame wars, but that's just funny.

I've enjoyed reading this blog for the testimonials about Red Cross Toothache Medication more than the Ka-Bar. I've used plenty of war toys, but never seen a Squishy Bowl, and that piece of kit has become my favourite pack item - and I thank this blog for that.

C'mon, let's ignore the C.O. Jones of the world and get back to talking about the little chotchkies that save us time and save our butts.

[Bull Jones]

Thank you, Brizmo!

[greg]

What about a marlin spike? The blade is meant for cutting rope, and the spike goes through bone. Both are tough as hell and can get beat like crazy as it is meant for salt water use. I've used a spike for practically everything and it still doesn't seem to ever want to quit.

[Matt]

Boker makes a current model of the WWII M3 Fighting knife. Leather handle, and hard sheath and all. It might not qualify as a reproduction since Boker USA made them during WWII in limited numbers.

[anonymous]

c.o. jones: i disrespectfully submit that you don't know what you're talking about. a knife is a tool and overall one of the least significant variables in a knife confrontation. mind-set, technique, strategy, timing and foot work all play a much greater role. consider these things first and then choose the right tool. for example, are you going to focus on a flowing style that uses draw cuts? or step inside and play counter to counter with rapid snap cuts and stabs? or perhaps stand off and fence with stabs and foot work. these kinds of considerations will dictate the blade characteristics, such length, weight, pointy-ness, how deep the belly is, hollow ground or flat ground. every person is different and therefore what works for one might not be optimal for the next. find what works for you and use it. doing this by picking the blade first is going about this all wrong. take some blade oriented martial classes and you'll start to understand.

[mitch]

The best knife is the one you have on you when you need it the most. Anything else is just an opinion. And I'm pretty sure you are all 'noobs.' What a gay term.

[wazoo]

Knife Fighting?-!
Here's a lesson....

"Stab with the winds speed,
withdraw from your violent deed, stab beneath the heart while exhaling, for effectiveness a shout entailing. Move like the dragon here and there, to win or lose is only a moments affair"

[dragon]

Everyone of you who proclaim expertice are posers. A true "EXPERT" wouldn't be arguing knife fighting on the internet. What a bunch of jackasses

[critser660]

What about the Gerber Mark II, one of the most famous knives in vietnam, along with the Ka Bar. I'm no ninja or knife fighting guru but I own an original Mark II and I believe it might cause a little internal damage with the correct "pumping motion" once insereted into someone's guts?